Ballistic Experiment (want to be part of a science experiment?)

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theory

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Before we get things started, this will be a multi-post thread over the next few months. At 26 years of age, I'm finally able to say my bachelors degrees are basically "in the bag". One of those degrees happens to be a BS in Mathematics, concentrated in applied mathematics and physics. Thus, the reason for my user name here on the forum.

With that said, I've been working on ballistic interception problems for my undergraduate "thesis equivalent" with a former Czech scientist now teaching in the states. To make this interesting, I'd like to see some forum participation in the form of suggestions.... Suffice to say, you may suggest the following:

1.) missile type (patriot, icbm, etc.?)
2.) targets (moscow, d.c., etc.?)
3.) weather conditions (clear, snowy, rainy, etc.?)
4.) time considerations (morning, afternoon, evening?)
5.) land or sea launches?
6.) perhaps you would like to add something else?

Basically, I'm trying to create a "real" scenario, using your input. This is something I cannot replicate in a lab, because I need this to be as randomly planned as possible in order to develop a method of solving "on the fly" interception problems.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 
Welcome to The High Road

Your post is a little confusing to me. I think you're asking forum members to propose random missile attacks on random targets under random conditions. Sort of using THR as a random scenario generator. Is this correct?

Have you considered using role playing game dice? There are 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 20 sided dice you could use to randomly create your scenarios.

Seems a little strange that someone who almost has a BS Math concentrated in applied mathematics and physics cannot come up with a better way fo generating random scenarios than asking an online forum.

Do you have any interest in firearms and the shooting sports?

Have fun, good luck on those degrees.
 
I think you had better check with your local FBI field office before going on any kind of mission such as this.

What you are asking sounds to be a felony in my book. Heck, you cannot even take certain software and computer components out of this country and you are talking about ICBM's.
 
1.) Essentially, we're dealing with artillery shells and missiles. There will not always be motive power once the projectile has left the point of origin. Thus, there are similar applications arrising from a standard firearm (handgun / rifle)

2.) I realize I can use dice as a sort of generator function, but I'm trying to incorporate human strategy into this as well. I already have compiter generated scenarios as well as "diced" scenarios.

3.) This is not a game of any kind, its an experiment that needs an unbiased human component. I really don't want to contaminate the dataset that I'm trying to collect by incorporating bias.

With that said, in theory, someone could suggest Antarctica firing a HARP projectile toward Christmas Island. There are so many potential variables to consider, thus my posting.
 
theory said:
To make this interesting, I'd like to see some forum participation in the form of suggestions.... Suffice to say, you may suggest the following:

1.) missile type (patriot, icbm, etc.?)
2.) targets (moscow, d.c., etc.?)
3.) weather conditions (clear, snowy, rainy, etc.?)
4.) time considerations (morning, afternoon, evening?)
5.) land or sea launches?
6.) perhaps you would like to add something else?

Basically, I'm trying to create a "real" scenario, using your input. This is something I cannot replicate in a lab, because I need this to be as randomly planned as possible in order to develop a method of solving "on the fly" interception problems.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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I'm not sure why you post this on this forum - we shoot rifles, pistols and shotguns. Some of us have military experience, true - but any of us who may have worked around the types of weapons you describe know better than to discuss them in an open forum. I will give you a couple of pieces of data, though -

- The Patriot is a ground to air missile, and is nowhere in the same sategory as ICBMs. It was famously used with varying degrees of success to intercept Iraqi SCUD missiles during the First Gulf War.

Good luck with your project!
 
DISCLAIMER: Nothing is leaving the country. I am a US born student/citizen working with two American born physicists, and a Czech born (naturalized) academic advisor. This is university research being conducted by a well known university in Ohio. The DoD is aware of the research (it is a registered research project) and is an addition to funded research that has already been submitted.

Conspiracy theorists need not apply. This project has already gone through judicial review.
 
Im not asking for specifics, I already understand the "sanitized" characteristics for various systems. The only thing that saying "ICMB" over "HARP" affects is the angle of intercept, time until intercept, and the height of the intercept in the equation. Nothing else is used. I dont care how it works, that is not what I am asking. I worked in field artillery prior to this at Ft. Sill (MLRS).

Guidance (for this experiment) is standardized across all projectiles. For the sake of the experiment, Its very much like dealing with bullets and saying "50 cal or .380?" or "standard or +p?"
 
It's not really clear as to what this forum is supposed to provide for your "experiment"
Try asking a clear and direct question. Intelligent people will generally repond to such input.
Technical?
Logistical?
Political?
 
I too belong to the "I'm not really sure what you are asking." club.

I'll give it a try though.

See if you can intercept incoming mortar rounds. I'm sure our guys on the ground would appreciate a system that could protect them.

Mortars seem to be about the only ballistic things, other than small arms, that are getting shot at our guys these days.

Nobody seems to be firing howitzers at us and any of the battlefield missles are guided and don't follow a ballistic trajectory. I suppose an RPG is ballistic so you could work on that too.

I would look at the naval CIWS systems for intercept problems, the US Phalanx and Dutch Goalkeeper do this with Gatling guns typically against sea skimming missles. The British Sea Wolf missle system used in the Falklands War successfully intercepted 115mm shells in flight during testing.

Good Luck.

Dan
 
So, you're basically asking for homework problems?

If a Titan II missile is launched from McConnell AFB in Kansas and is targeted at Havana, Cuba and launched durning a blizzard in Kansas with a Category 3 Hurricane with peak wind velocities centered on Havana at 3 AM on a Tuesday....

You're going to do what with this in a 'thesis equivalent' that requires you to have randomly generated assumptions that you can't create for yourself? In a DOD approved "registered research project?"

Are you for real or some kinda funny guy? You sound kinda fake dontcha think? Bored Community College student with a keyboard?

How about this one?

A pure iron sphere exactly 1.73 meters in diameter traveling at .09 C aimed and timed to impact "a well known university in Ohio" 1 minute and 14 seconds after you are seated at your desk. Ballistically intercept that and see if you like it.
 
Dan, that's exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you for taking the high road. I appreciate it. Thats a suggestion that could eventually save a life.

As for the suggested iron sphere, it will vaporize at that speed before it hits the ground. I do appreciate the application of the speed of light. Classy. 8)

Alright guys, I suppose I earned the knocks on this one. Points well taken.
 
How about calculating the lead for knocking out a high speed watercraft off the U. S. coastline - say North Carolina. The watercraft is capable of thirty knots plus and the defensive weapon - a big cannon - is more or less permanently mounted and has a fifty mile range.
 
Theory,

I suspect you need to provide a lot more backgrouond data. F'r instance; 'what sort of ICBMs are we talking about ? Are they MIRVED ? And that just scratches the surface......

IOW, (since this is purely theoretical), formulate a scenario and assign values to the various sorts of offensive/defensive devices. Might also be a good idea to give everyone some background on the degrees of readiness, 'second strike capability' and homeland hardened defense capabilities.......

BTW, in today's missile world "ballistic" is an euphimism........

From what I see/read yours appears a "fishing expedition" . >MW
 
I have one for you:
Friday, November 22, 1963, in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas. 12:30 p.m. Temperature is 74 degrees with a 5mph wind out of the southeast. The projectile is a 6.5mm bullet fired from a Carcano rifle from the 6th floor of the Texas Book Depository 200 meters behind the target. Target is traveling SSE at 15mph. You are 2 meters north of the target traveling at the same velocity as the target and want to intercept the rifle bullet with a .38 caliber 158 grain bullet traveling at 800ft/s.
Intercept the bullet, save JFK, and change history.
 
As for the suggested iron sphere, it will vaporize at that speed before it hits the ground
Click to expand...
Ah, but don't forget that the sphere doesn't have to hit the ground to mess you up (think Tunguska, and that was only ~2*10^15 joules); atmospheric coupling is pretty good at transmitting the energy of large explosions, and don't forget thermal emission.

The kinetic energy of a 21.3-metric-ton iron sphere at 0.09c is in excess of 7.7*10^18 joules, if I didn't mess up the math. Meaning, when that sphere hits the atmosphere a few miles over your head, it is going to vaporize and detonate with the energy of 1.85 gigatons TNT equivalent. Ohio will be irradiated and cooked by the thermal emission (I don't even know how to begin to calculate the blackbody temperature) before the blast wave hits the ground, and the blast wave will be a doozy. It's not a continent-buster, but it's a big event. And given that the vaporized atoms of that sphere carry ~6*10^14 kg-m/s of momentum, that blast wave will probably be very biased in the downward direction.

Now, if you could intercept that mass with a comparable mass, and could intercept it far enough out that the remains of the sphere are spread out into a volume of millions of cubic km by the time they hit the atmosphere, you could presumably avoid ill effects. Figuring out the minimum safe distance would be an interesting puzzle.
 
Come on folks, help the guy out, I was a student last year and I know what it is like asking for input or feedback on a project. Folks from this site and others helped me with suggestions and comments for my MSc project involving gunshot wounds.
This might not be a missile and gunshot wounds forum but surely it is within our collective abilities to think laterally on this, yes?

Going to the range now, will post some scenarios when I get back.
 
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