Balloon head .38-40

[44 Dave]

Are balloon head cartridges safe to reload?

 

[Roverguy]

Considering it’s unlikely that they have been made in a very long time, I would certainly anneal them before loading and, just my opinion, would only load black powder in them. I’d also check primer pockets before getting into any further brass prep.

 

[44 Dave]

They are from an "assorted" box of old ammo, some have small primers. some large, some black powder, some smoke less. was going to pull the bullets and fire the primers then give them to a friend. I shoot .44-40.
There is part of a box of Colt rim fire .38s and were .41 shorts. The .41s get shot in my Remington derringer.

 

[hawg]

They ought to be but why would you? The heads are thinner and weaker plus they haven't been made for many years. Most of them haven't been made since the 1890's and if used they were fired with corrosive primers.

 

[PistoleroWadcutterGANG]

To be able to say you experienced shooting your own "BH" loading I get. OR find a period correct cast bullet to top it and display them would probably be best. Honestly there is no adv to it over newer mfc bras. Or, sell them to collectors and buy a lot of ammo with it.

 

[44 Dave]

I pulled the bullets from the smokeless, they have no lube grooves are jacketed with something silver color
I only pulled 1 black powder, all lead bullet with 2 lube grooves It was not balloon head.
Go figure !!

 

[Dave T]

Back in the early 1990s I found a full box of 50 NOS Winchester 45 Colt balloon head cases. I used them for research into the actual performance of the original commercial 45 Colt ammo. I duplicated the original load with 255g RNF bullets cast of 1-20 alloy as were the originals. Loaded 40g of FFg black powder, then duplicated the seating depth and crimp (as best I could) found on and original loaded round. Then I fired them in the three standard barrel lengths (7-1/2", 5-1/2". and 4-3/4") through my chronograph. This was with the 1st Generation Colts I owned at the time.

I kept loading and shooting them and got 3-5 reloads before the necks started splitting. A fascinating experiment and experience so I'd recommend trying it if your friend with the 38 WCF is into black powder cartridge history.

Dave

 

[Jim Watson]

Then I fired them in the three standard barrel lengths (7-1/2", 5-1/2". and 4-3/4") through my chronograph.

And, and?

The other way 'round; Henry Stebbins wrote of finding most of a box of once fired solid head .45 LC at the range, and thinking it an unusual catch at the time.

 

[Onty]

Years back I purchased .455 Webley Mk VI, and some ammo with it. Since I never shoot somebody's reloads, I grabbed hammer bullet puller and took apart all ammo, something like 50-60 rounds. Apart from paper tissue stuffed on top of the powder, I also found that all cases were Mk I (long one) and with balloon head. At that time I was young shooter, zero experience, so I asked experienced shooters for advice. They all told me that most likely those cases are quite old and already have some corrosion, so they shouldn't be used.

 

[Dave T]

And, and?

OK.

Forty grains of FFg under a 1-20 cast 255g RNFP, in the NOS balloon-head cases, chonographed 914 fps from the 7-1/2",1880s era Cavalry Colt. From a 5-1/2" "Artillery Model" whose frame dated from 1880s also, but its other parts dated from 1874 to 1890 chronographed at 894 fps. Those two 1st Gen SAAs were military guns. My 4-3/4" Colt left the factory as a 1887 civilian gun that shipped to a big dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio (cant' remember the name). It chronographed the same ammunition at 864 fps. These were all 5 shot strings of fire.

Dave

 

[StrawHat]

…My 4-3/4" Colt left the factory as a 1887 civilian gun that shipped to a big dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio (cant' remember the name). It chronographed the same ammunition at 864 fps. These were all 5 shot strings of fire.

Dave

Dave,


Perhaps B F Kittridge?


Kevin

 

[Dave T]

StrawHat,

That name certainly sounds familiar and could well be correct. I don't have the notes I had on those guns, which I sold off in the mid-1990s to start a business. LOL - now the business is gone and so are the 1st Gen Colts.

Dave

 

[hawg]

Dave,


Perhaps B F Kittridge?


Kevin

Probably. Ben Kittridge & Co. was the largest Colt distributor in Cincinnati and is reportedly responsible for giving the Colt revolvers their nicknames (ie) Peacemaker, Lightning etc.

 

[tmd16556]

I’d be concerned about damage from mercuric primers on something that old.

 

[Savvy Jack]

The truth about the "balloonhead" cases.

Balloon-Head vs Solid-Head Cartridge Cases

docs.google.com

 

[CraigC]

I wouldn't. I've got a few boxes of brand new Winchester .44 Special brass that I was going to use to duplicate Elmer Keith's original Dupont #80 loads. Only because the brass is new. Might shoot 10-20rds with them but that's it.

 

[Jim Watson]

You have SR 80 powder? Do be careful, it was hazardous to Elmer's guns. Phil Sharpe shows velocity but not pressure.

 

[hawg]

You have SR 80 powder? Do be careful, it was hazardous to Elmer's guns. Phil Sharpe shows velocity but not pressure.

That's some really old powder. It hasn't been made since the 30's.

 

[Slamfire]

You can read of Elmer Keith blowing the case head on balloon head cases with blackpowder loads.

I was able to buy some vintage 45 LC balloon head cases. One out of ten lost their case heads in the sizing die. The things pull apart very easily. It was lots of fun knocking the case body out of the die.

The thing is, when the case grips the chamber, and pressures increase, something's got to give when pressures rise.

Varmit Al's web page shows what happens when the case sticks to the chamber. Rifle Chamber Finish & Friction Effects on Bolt Load and Case Head Thinning.

The red at the bottom is the stress in the case head, which is the worst area to stress the case. Due to the potential of a gas release into the action. Balloon cases are even thinner than the solid head Al modeled.

If you do shoot those cases, coat them with a lubricant. That way the case will slide to the bolt face without stressing the case head. Try Johnson paste wax, it will be dry till you fire it, and then it will turn into a liquid lubricant under the pressures and temperatures of combustion. Or just leave the case lube on after sizing. But, you are also dealing with vintage cases, and they might be brittle in the wrong places.

I think you are going to have some fireworks, regardless of what you do. I am interested in finding out if you shoot them, and what happens.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Then I fired them in the three standard barrel lengths (7-1/2", 5-1/2". and 4-3/4") through my chronograph.

And what were the results??

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Never mind!

 

[Slamfire]

OK.

Forty grains of FFg under a 1-20 cast 255g RNFP, in the NOS balloon-head cases, chonographed 914 fps from the 7-1/2",1880s era Cavalry Colt. From a 5-1/2" "Artillery Model" whose frame dated from 1880s also, but its other parts dated from 1874 to 1890 chronographed at 894 fps. Those two 1st Gen SAAs were military guns. My 4-3/4" Colt left the factory as a 1887 civilian gun that shipped to a big dealer in Cincinnati, Ohio (cant' remember the name). It chronographed the same ammunition at 864 fps. These were all 5 shot strings of fire.

Dave

That was interesting. Thanks. You know, 900 fps with a 255 gr lead bullet is still a potent load, and much more so back in the 1880's. Sure beats the 44 Russian with a 240 L at 750 fps.

@Driftwood Johnson has period images of ads for S&W topbreaks. Smith and Wesson was not selling velocity in its cartridge comparisons, it was selling "penetration in wood". If S&W had put up velocity numbers, the bigger is better crowd might have walked over to Colt.

Everyone knows, Billy the Kid did not have a cell phone or internet. Nor did anyone have a portable chronograph. But advertisers still act the same. They only tell you what you need to know to buy their product.

 

[Jim Watson]

The Army soon backed off the 40 grain load, even before going with the shorter .45 Government for commonality with the Schofield. The 1909 New Service round, a .45 LC case with larger rim for simultaneous extraction was only 738 fps as loaded with RSQ smokeless powder, about the same as the Schofield stuff.

But commercial loads worked back up, if it was reduced much in the first place. I had an old advert for a 35 grain load and a UMC flyer offering 40 grains of BP. Sharpe showed 40 gr at 900-910 fps depending on the bullet.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I think Remington made the 40 grain, 45 Colt load for quite a while.

Nor did anyone have a portable chronograph.

It is interesting what they did use for measuring velocity back then. For sure not portable, one I know of was a very large "contraption" consisting of a very large drum or cylinder with graph paper on it. They would spin it at a specific RPM, shoot at it, and by measuring the distance between the holes in each side it could be determined mathematically what the velocity was. !!! Very clever. However, the common 1" pine board method of penetration testing wasn't "bad". Gave one a pretty good comparison between calibers/cartridges. Not perfect, and didn't tell all, but velocity in it's self does not always tell all either.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Everyone knows, Billy the Kid did not have a cell phone or internet.

Yep, me and Billy hate the cell phone. I don't have one either. However, I have fallen prey to the internet. Dang.