BATFE Letter: Pinfire guns are NOT subject to 68 GCA or 34 NFA

[AJAX22]

I received a response to a letter I wrote to the BATFE a few months back..

Very interesting implications...




anyone want a pinfire machine gun pinfire short barreled shotgun? pinfire pen gun?

its open season

 

[mortablunt]

^ Woot! Sounds great. Now who is going to provide pinfire ammo?

 

[AJAX22]

http://www.hlebooks.com/pinfire/pin01.htm

 

[Trebor]

You need to read the letter more closely.

"Pinfire weapons and ammunition, IN THEIR ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION, regardless of age, are exempted from regulation under both the GCA and NFA."

And then a few lines down:

"...although antiqure firearms are exempted....replicas are not..."

Read that paragraph carefully.

My understanding is, if you found an existing pinfire MG, in it's original configuration, that would be fine as it is unregulated. But, you can't make a new pinfire MG as that is a "replica" and not an "antique."

Same goes for pinfire SBS, pen gun, etc. If you find one that was made that way originally (original configuratin, remember), you are fine. But, you can't modify or make a new one now.

 

[Alec]

If you did find an antique, I would wager that repairs qualify as a modification. So no daily shooter to be found there.

 

[Shadow 7D]

No, I'm pretty sure that something like the C&R definition would hold, repares to orgininal state or SIMILAR PERIOD CORRECT STATE (so returning a commercial sporter or similar to its 'modified' original state) is not modification, but anything else is, so repairing the gun no.

But once again, it isn't official unless you have the letter, and then they are free to reverse themselves.

 

[Owen Sparks]

If you really wanted a short double barrel shotgun could you not just saw off a black powder double barrel? I have seen a replica blunderbuss at a gun show. My neighbor has a replica BP double rabbit ears that is really nice. He even hunts with it some. I would hate to cut something like that up but it could probably be a legal way to own a sawed off shotgun if you really wanted one. I say PROBABLY because state and local laws may also apply but it might be worth looking into.

 

[mboylan]

Well, there is a reason why Maxim didn't build a pinfire machine gun. Can you imagine the feeding problems you would have with the pins sticking out of the cartridge rims?

Even if it was legal or practical, it is neither, it is so much easier and cheaper to buy a SWD M11/9 and put a Lage on it.

Beltfeds have come way down in price too. You can get a M1919 for less than a nice M16A1.

 

[andrewstorm]

no cartridge firearms made in or before 1898 are subject to the gca or nfa

except machine guns,pinfires fall in to the same catagory as percussion arms,the a t f has previously determined that altering the frame of an pre 1899 firearm does not change its antique status ,search( pre 1899 f a q )youll see that any firearm made before 1899 is a non gun under federal law and can be sent through the us mail without an ffl.....if you alter an c&r gun it will lose its status,but an bonafide antique can never loose its status. search pre 1899 f a q

 

[Shadow 7D]

KINDA
see NFA is different than GCA, and getting them confused. Well, that could end you up in a bunch of trouble.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

You need to read the letter more closely.

"Pinfire weapons and ammunition, IN THEIR ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION, regardless of age, are exempted from regulation under both the GCA and NFA."

And then a few lines down:

"...although antiqure firearms are exempted....replicas are not..."

Where he states that replicas are not exempt is referring to import, taxation, manufacture. That may prohibit new manufacture of a replica pinfire MG, but still leaves pinfire exempt from NFA and GCA.

See "B" and "B 1" in the quote from the GCA... A pinfire replica that is a replica of a gun designed before 1898 and firing pinfire ammunition would meet the criteria and thus not fall under the GCA.

 

[Shadow 7D]

NO the catch is

IN THEIR ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION, regardless of age, are exempted from regulation under both the GCA and NFA.

You would have to prove and provide that any Pinfire NFA type weapon or replica is

IN THEIR ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION

 

[AJAX22]

The replica restrictive language only appears in the 68 GCA wording, not in the 34 NFA wording (they are slightly different)...

I'm working on a followup letter to clarify a few points, but the initial thinking among the legal eagles is that even if the BATFE attempted to regulate a non original pinfire design on the grounds it was not a replica, they would only be able to say that it was a title 1 firearm subject to the 68 GCA, The NFA would still not apply.

This has some rather interesting potential.

 

[CoRoMo]

Pinfire weapons and ammunition, IN THEIR ORIGINAL CONFIGURATION, regardless of age, are exempted from regulation under both the GCA and NFA.

...although antiqure firearms are exempted....replicas are not...

Regardless of age... as in brand new; born this morning, doesn't disqualify it from exemption. This means a newly made pin-fire gun, not an antique, not a replica of an antique, would be exempt from both GCA and NFA. Manufacture it new, but as long as it doesn't fall into the replica category, and as long as it remains in its original configuration... good to go? Certainly looks like it.

Title 18 USC, Sec. 921 (a)(1)(16) "The term 'antique firearm' means -

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm describe in sub-paragraph (A) if such replica -

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rim-fire or conventional center-fire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this sub-paragraph, the term 'antique firearm' shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof.

So it appears as though if you go off to design and build a new pin-fire machine gun, short barrel shotgun, or pen gun, that is not a replica of an antique, you are as exempt as a muzzleloading short barrel shotgun or black powder pen gun.

 

[Owen Sparks]

They quit making pin fire ammo for a reason. It was impractical and dangerous to handle especially back when it was loaded with black powder which can explode like a fire cracker if the pin is hit.

 

[CoRoMo]

That's not really what this thread is about though. We're talking about laws and interpretations here. The mechanics and practicality of the ammo should be discussed elsewhere.

 

[andrewstorm]

batf

antique -pinfire they got a couple on auction arms now for 149.00 each 7mm i think ammo kits are at hl E books,get u one..............