wwace
Member
I agreeComparative cycling times depend a lot on the amount of practice for operating at speed. Let's not get off to wandering around in that arena, okay?
Me, I'd likely rank as slow, and for a very good reason. Think about it.
Bear medicine/ Alaska/ Hunting or SD
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wwace
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I am trying to edit above.
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wwace
Member
I am not for various reasons going to answer this on a public forum, but big is subjective when you are talking about brown/grizzly bears, any of them are scary as hell when you run into them. As I said before I do not hunt them and try to avoid them as much as possible. If I am fishing and they come along I leave. The crap you see on TV where people stay put in close proximity to any bear is against my advice, I say give them their space and avoid conflict, after all it is how they live. However if you have one trying to get in your house or cabin that is quite different, that is part of what I am trying to get across.
BTW, my first close up Brownie experience what we did was run, but we were lucky enough to be able to get out of sight to do so and we had no weapons whatsoever, a sow with two huge cubs FTW.
wwace
Member
that was not my statement, but I did agree with some of it, the complicated in particular. BTW, my Sako .338 action is lightning fast, when shooting game I often found I had already worked action without thinking, this is the kind of performance you want if your brain is capable of keeping you informed that you have already reloaded LOL
Flintknapper
Member
It is your prerogative to exclude anything you like, I would never argue that, but just a cursory search on the subject turns up many more times where there is praise for the bullet... than any actual failures.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=176495.0
Its easy enough to find "something" to support your position.... particularly IF you already have a viewpoint. So...I don't know which way it happened (you first read about the bullet, then had an experience, or had the ONE experience and then researched).
Like you, I searched the subject and did in fact find folks who were not thrilled with the TSX/TTSX. But, many, many....more who were happy with them.
In almost no case...were they faulted for lack of penetration, but I am not doubting your story. Its just way out of the ordinary and you might experiment with the bullet a little yourself to see if it changes your mind.
I do like (and use) some of the premium bullets you promote, but any of them can fail under certain conditions. At that point, a thorough and objective look into "why" that happened is in order. Not a rush to judgement based on one experience.
wwace
Member
I had actually seen one forum post regarding them poorly in an African forum I belong to, but I did not read it until afterwards. It was probably 9-10 months before we had the problems. I recalled seeing the pictures and went back and read the complete post. The post was regarding various Barnes X-bullet problems that a well known guide had seen over several years from multiple clients. The issues ran the gamut from huge entry wounds on small game to not opening at all and hitting unintended animals after passing through the intended target. I had not seen anything like what he had encountered. I ended up relating my experience and talking with the guide several times about this and other subjects. I did not go on a huge quest to find bad data about Barnes. I just took what I saw and formed my own opinion. Again I will never use them because I do not think it is appropriate to use a product I do not trust or have "personal" good experience with. TBBC's, Swift Aframe's are top performers in my experience, Accubonds are a bit softer but I have only used them on one moose so I will pretty much stick to the others. I know they will work if I am lucky enough to see suitable game. Same goes for Nosler Partitions, many like these bullets but I do not like that the front basically turns to shrapnel while the rear acts like a solid and sails right through moose, at least in 250gr 338 they do. I do not like the shotgun effect and the wasted meat so I will use bullets that stay together.
Flintknapper
Member
Very much by "design" and that has been my experience with them too.
Appropriate for many situations, not so much for others.
Boils down to proper bullet selection for the task at hand.
If a person chooses the wrong bullet for the wrong application, it would not be fair to call it "bullet failure", I know you would agree.
I support your decision to only use bullets you have confidence in (for whatever reason).
"If all you have is a lever gun?" Come on, that is more than most when you are in close quarters with a bear. A .338 WinMag in dense brush is the last thing I would want with a large brownie coming at me.
Bolt actions may be better when you have a lot of distance between you and the bear, but up close and personal, give me a lever rifle anyday.
As far as buckshot for bear? Consider that the average buckshot is the same as nine, .380 bullets going into a bear at the same time. In addition, these are round projectiles with poor SD and they simply lack penetration.
Aim COM and hope and pray you get lucky with good penetration into CNS or the vitals. You will need somthing that can bust through bone and have enough penetration to extend deep into the vital areas.
There are a whole lot of combinations of bullets, calibers and powder charges to get you to that point. Note, that even with African caliber guns, too many times where bears hit well with these "elephant" guns have kept on coming.
The only way to reliably drop one of these critters is a CNS hit. Anything less than that is just a crap shoot.
Go with the biggest gun you can reliable handle. The minimum recommended power is 3000 ft-pds muzzle energy with bullets designed to penetrate. There is much more on the plate than just a bolt action .338 magnum.
Bolt actions may be better when you have a lot of distance between you and the bear, but up close and personal, give me a lever rifle anyday.
As far as buckshot for bear? Consider that the average buckshot is the same as nine, .380 bullets going into a bear at the same time. In addition, these are round projectiles with poor SD and they simply lack penetration.
Aim COM and hope and pray you get lucky with good penetration into CNS or the vitals. You will need somthing that can bust through bone and have enough penetration to extend deep into the vital areas.
There are a whole lot of combinations of bullets, calibers and powder charges to get you to that point. Note, that even with African caliber guns, too many times where bears hit well with these "elephant" guns have kept on coming.
The only way to reliably drop one of these critters is a CNS hit. Anything less than that is just a crap shoot.
Go with the biggest gun you can reliable handle. The minimum recommended power is 3000 ft-pds muzzle energy with bullets designed to penetrate. There is much more on the plate than just a bolt action .338 magnum.
Shadow 7D
Member
I would note the number of people not commenting
bears have been killed by a variety of arms, whether 'Ideal' or not
many of these encounters may have been better managed with either a better sense of paranoia (be aware of where the bears may be) or by using other responses, I like the idea of bear spray, as you don't have to get the critical hit, you have a nice large cone of pain.
as for what gun, something that can work, leave it at that. Cause many of the mauling happen SUDDENLY, read the accounts. or PM Kodiakbeer and ask him (or look up his thread)
In the end, education, paranoia and proper wood craft will do more to keep you safe than any gun.
OH and hunting bear is MUCH different than bear defense, go ask Caribou.
bears have been killed by a variety of arms, whether 'Ideal' or not
many of these encounters may have been better managed with either a better sense of paranoia (be aware of where the bears may be) or by using other responses, I like the idea of bear spray, as you don't have to get the critical hit, you have a nice large cone of pain.
as for what gun, something that can work, leave it at that. Cause many of the mauling happen SUDDENLY, read the accounts. or PM Kodiakbeer and ask him (or look up his thread)
In the end, education, paranoia and proper wood craft will do more to keep you safe than any gun.
OH and hunting bear is MUCH different than bear defense, go ask Caribou.
The problem with bear pepper spray data is that it is not all inclusive. In other words, there are a lot of bear encounters every year that are never reported or documented in any mannner. In addition, those encounters ended with a gun that does not wound are likewise not always recorded either.
The data is vastly incomplete which makes comparing statistics of which is more effective quite comical in many ways and subject to the bias of the researcher writing the article.
Bear spray is certainly on the list of effective deterrents, but looking at the articles that quote anecdotal accounts is not real hard science at all.
One of the confounding errors of this research is the number of bluff charges considered successful bear spray defenses. There is no way to record from anecdotal accounts what was a real charge from a bluff charge which is much more common.
Likewise, how many people with gun in hand have stood down a bear as well?
If folks truly believe that scientists have "proven" bear spray as better than a high caliber gun, then I would suggest a bit of review on what constitutes scientific evidence. To say the least, the science of pepper spray is not very high caliber at all and ranks at the lowest levels of scientific evidence pyramids. All we can say is that pepper spray does appear to be effective in "some" cercumstances. Technically, these are retrospective, observational studies that utilize first and second hand information from anecdotal recall. Sorry, that is not at all hard science.
You truly do not have hard scientific facts to make a direct comparison or state dogmatically that pepper spray is better than a gun. Just ask the 7 kids who were savaged by the grizzly last year how well pepper spray worked for them. Remember, you have to be able to deploy your bear deterrant and simply because these kids did not deploy the pepper spray does not in any sense remove the fact that their planned defense failed, due to pilot error. Funny how that case doesn't make it into the data banks, but failure to deploy a gun does.
The data is vastly incomplete which makes comparing statistics of which is more effective quite comical in many ways and subject to the bias of the researcher writing the article.
Bear spray is certainly on the list of effective deterrents, but looking at the articles that quote anecdotal accounts is not real hard science at all.
One of the confounding errors of this research is the number of bluff charges considered successful bear spray defenses. There is no way to record from anecdotal accounts what was a real charge from a bluff charge which is much more common.
Likewise, how many people with gun in hand have stood down a bear as well?
If folks truly believe that scientists have "proven" bear spray as better than a high caliber gun, then I would suggest a bit of review on what constitutes scientific evidence. To say the least, the science of pepper spray is not very high caliber at all and ranks at the lowest levels of scientific evidence pyramids. All we can say is that pepper spray does appear to be effective in "some" cercumstances. Technically, these are retrospective, observational studies that utilize first and second hand information from anecdotal recall. Sorry, that is not at all hard science.
You truly do not have hard scientific facts to make a direct comparison or state dogmatically that pepper spray is better than a gun. Just ask the 7 kids who were savaged by the grizzly last year how well pepper spray worked for them. Remember, you have to be able to deploy your bear deterrant and simply because these kids did not deploy the pepper spray does not in any sense remove the fact that their planned defense failed, due to pilot error. Funny how that case doesn't make it into the data banks, but failure to deploy a gun does.
Shadow 7D
Member
I'd rather not debate polotics
the fact is, bear spray can work and usually has much few consequences, it has been shown to break off bear charges.
WOODS SENSE, training, not surprising a bear etc, are better than any defensive weapon, lethal nor not.
BUT to say "only high caliber rifles" or some such (I can post a story about the guy who shot his buddy trying to save him from the bear just as quickly as you can post the 7 kids, and with both there were failures)
Better to learn the basics of being bear safe, understand that you may be hunted (paranoid) and try not to do anything stupid. There is a plan to be safe. How many times do people plan for it all to go to hell, before they plan how NOT to have it go to hell. I can post plenty of videos of bear spray on BROWNS (for some reason less effective on black bears, and yes they do studies) breaking a charge, but then that's a "controlled" environment, it was just a bluff charge etc.........
In S&T they have a saying
Mindset
Skillset
Equipment
IN THAT ORDER.
So please don't go wondering around in bear country tripping daisies thinking thinking that since you have the "perfect bear gun" you don't have to worry about a bear. Those often end badly, either in jail or in pieces, Remember, when you defensively shoot a bear, F&G will be around to do a Colonoscopy.
So before this reverts to the previous equipment fight, please take a moment and think about bear safe practices, simple things like bear bells, understanding posture, and how NOT to feed them.
the fact is, bear spray can work and usually has much few consequences, it has been shown to break off bear charges.
WOODS SENSE, training, not surprising a bear etc, are better than any defensive weapon, lethal nor not.
BUT to say "only high caliber rifles" or some such (I can post a story about the guy who shot his buddy trying to save him from the bear just as quickly as you can post the 7 kids, and with both there were failures)
Better to learn the basics of being bear safe, understand that you may be hunted (paranoid) and try not to do anything stupid. There is a plan to be safe. How many times do people plan for it all to go to hell, before they plan how NOT to have it go to hell. I can post plenty of videos of bear spray on BROWNS (for some reason less effective on black bears, and yes they do studies) breaking a charge, but then that's a "controlled" environment, it was just a bluff charge etc.........
In S&T they have a saying
Mindset
Skillset
Equipment
IN THAT ORDER.
So please don't go wondering around in bear country tripping daisies thinking thinking that since you have the "perfect bear gun" you don't have to worry about a bear. Those often end badly, either in jail or in pieces, Remember, when you defensively shoot a bear, F&G will be around to do a Colonoscopy.
So before this reverts to the previous equipment fight, please take a moment and think about bear safe practices, simple things like bear bells, understanding posture, and how NOT to feed them.
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The USGS had a great study on 100 years of bear attacks in Alaska a couple of years back that I haven't been able to find since. They noted that attacks were most common with only 1-2 people and very rare with 4 or more in a group. The second most common factor was poor visibility in dense brush for instance.
Those are very controllable in many instances. However, you run around in the dense woods in Idaho with new growth, you can't see at all past the end of the trail. Makes for interesting travel through the woods with all the young trees bordering the trails.
As I mentioned on another thread, pepper spray is not that effective on male predatory black bears which are the most common types of black bear attack. If you use pepper spray on an aggressive black bear, be prepared that he won't go away and that he will attack again. Quite a few cases on record for that behavior. In that circumstance, you must have lethal means of defense. That is one of many instances where pepper spray isn't your best choice. High velocity wind which is common in many parts of Alaska is another especially when you are downwind.
Those are very controllable in many instances. However, you run around in the dense woods in Idaho with new growth, you can't see at all past the end of the trail. Makes for interesting travel through the woods with all the young trees bordering the trails.
As I mentioned on another thread, pepper spray is not that effective on male predatory black bears which are the most common types of black bear attack. If you use pepper spray on an aggressive black bear, be prepared that he won't go away and that he will attack again. Quite a few cases on record for that behavior. In that circumstance, you must have lethal means of defense. That is one of many instances where pepper spray isn't your best choice. High velocity wind which is common in many parts of Alaska is another especially when you are downwind.
wwace
Member
As a side note I know one of the gentlemen who survived a mauling on Kodiak, the famous one with the Buck knife. And the mauling about a week before killed an aquaintance, it can go either way.
I have attempted to clarify hunting vs self defense as they are two very different things. All of what I write is only my opinion or the opinions of others with whom I have discussed the subject. My gear selections are just what I would choose, nothing else, although I do not like several firearm types I feel any firearm is better than none. I recommend people have both bear spray (regardless of how effective it may be) and a firearm, if you follow this advice you will be looked on favorably in certain situations.
I have attempted to clarify hunting vs self defense as they are two very different things. All of what I write is only my opinion or the opinions of others with whom I have discussed the subject. My gear selections are just what I would choose, nothing else, although I do not like several firearm types I feel any firearm is better than none. I recommend people have both bear spray (regardless of how effective it may be) and a firearm, if you follow this advice you will be looked on favorably in certain situations.
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No argument there wwace, I also believe in multiple layers of bear self defense starting with avoidance as the primary defensive layer, followed by more than one in a group, avoiding dense brush, IF YOU CAN, and then proper armament including a good handgun and a good rifle depending on your circumstances.
Idaho is now under the menace of a new predator, the Canadian Mackenzie Valley wolf. There are many tales of wolves harassing hunters and pack horses. In such a situation, the amount of ammo was just as important as the type of gun. I consider at least 50 rounds of total ammo per person needed for Idaho if you are one of the rare unfortunates who must also deal with a pack of wolves. A pack of wolves is the apex predator in the woods that even grizzly bears give way to. There are actually accounts of wolves running down a grizzly bear, killing and eating them. The griz isn't always at the top of the heap.
Bear pepper spray may be an important adjunctive defense. For my wife who is recoil shy and not able to shoot even the smallest effective rifles such as a .357 for instance, pepper spray is her best line of defense as long as she is with someone with a lethal backup alternative. There is power in numbers and using bear camping skills to keep them out of camp is probably the most important part of bear country hiking and camping.
Lastly, tent camping was always a way of life for me in my younger years, but no more. I want something solid that gives me time to get my gun in hand at least should we encounter a bear while we are sleeping. If you do go the tent route, a tent without a floor is the best way to go so that you don't become entombed inside of a tent as a bear drags you off. Blankets are better than a mummy bag and a clean campsite is the most important part of bear defense.
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