wwace
Member
I agreeComparative cycling times depend a lot on the amount of practice for operating at speed. Let's not get off to wandering around in that arena, okay?
Me, I'd likely rank as slow, and for a very good reason. Think about it.
I agreeComparative cycling times depend a lot on the amount of practice for operating at speed. Let's not get off to wandering around in that arena, okay?
Me, I'd likely rank as slow, and for a very good reason. Think about it.
I am trying to edit above.Sir, if I understand you correctly…you have “banned” Barnes TSX bullets from your camp based on the performance on exactly one animal (some of the shots of which you admit you don’t know either the placement or penetration)?
I did some research also and there were enough doubts about these bullets to support my ban.
The other shot (neck shot) is reported to have penetrated no more than 3”, though the recovered bullet was said to be intact (petals opened).
Correct
It is truly hard to imagine that a TSX fired from a .338 Win Mag at a distance of 30 feet would penetrate no farther than what could be expected of a .22 rimfire, but I will take your word for it.
BTW, I used a 338 for 20+ years, I used to shoot everything in the neck and mostly with Swift Aframes. These if recovered were at the hide on the opposite side of entry. I never had a neck shot not penetrate a moose, which is 4x as tough as a caribou. One of these days I will learn the important of photos, I really wish I had taken them in this instance
Oddly enough, I just finished watching a show on TV where a guy shot a Caribou using a .300 Win Mag and 180 gr. Accubond bullets (one your preferred bullets) from a distance of approximately 130 yds (according to narration).
At the first shot (perfectly placed tight behind the shoulder) the animal never even flinched (no kidding). The guide and hunter both watched the Boo a few seconds and determined to shoot it again.
This is a typical reaction from a lung shot that didn't hit bones
The hunter shot once more…and you could clearly see the hide ripple from the impact (another perfect shot), this time the animal slowly walked off (after just standing there for a bit) and eventually toppled over.
Now, you and I both know that the 300 Win Mag delivers plenty of power (under 400 yds) for Caribou and the Accubond is an excellent bullet.
But if we were to use this one (odd) example to demonstrate the apparent lack of ability of the round to drop an animal, it would (at best) be intellectually dishonest of us IMO.
The TSX is actually designed to open quickly, but generally achieves good penetration as well…..by virtue of the sharp petals “cutting” (not pushing) their way through flesh, combined with the tendency of the bullet to retain nearly all (if not all) of its weight.
If the TSX is known for anything…its penetration.
When I went looking for info I saw many instances of failure of the various Barnes type bullets, In no way am I some expert about Barnes but I of course have my opinions about what I have used extensively. First off the X type bullets are very large for their weight compared to typical lead/copper bullets. Since they are designed to flare open on impact this gives them a larger surface area for the weight so I would be surprised to see the same penetration side by side a TBBC, which is the perfect all around bullet IMO. Mass + greater surface area = less penetration in my mind. Since Barnes seems to be quite long for the heavier bullets they may not adequately stabilize in some rifles also if there is not enough twist.
But, my point is this:
Even if the occasional anomaly happens (poor bullet performance due to whatever circumstance) is it really fair to judge (and subsequently BAN) it based on such a small sampling?
From my experience a conventional bullet will perform every time pretty much the same, they break bones and may deform but they will always penetrate adequately. Why use a bullet that may not work when you most need it, I will not.
My other findings showed cases of them not opening at all or bending off of a leg bone among other things.
Likewise, the story about the guy shooting the Caribou (all around the edges) with the 444 lever gun!
Presumably, they (lever guns) are banned from the camp as well? Though the cartridge and rifle action are well proven elsewhere.
In forty years nobody(our guests) has brought anything other than a bolt rifle to our camp, and none of them were asked to bring or not bring any certain rifle action type. This sampling is maybe about 60-70 different people though, not over a hundred for sure. Maybe it has to do with the area where my family was from they didn't grow up using levers, although my dad shot a lot of deer with a Savage .300
Nothing wrong with having strong opinions about what constitutes proper gear for a given task, but before dismissing any one group….perhaps a stronger argument could be made…than simply ‘I saw this happen one time’.
If you are in an area where you can step on a bear at any moment I would not suggest using any equipment you have any doubts in. Where I am responsible for people I will try give them adequate instruction and advice as to what does work, but I am not hovering over them at the same time they hunt on their own mostly at our place.
I do value your experience and Thank You for relating it here…as all input is something we can compare to our own and develop opinions about.
And I apologize for drifting so far from the theme of this thread (BEAR S/D)
Flint
I am not for various reasons going to answer this on a public forum, but big is subjective when you are talking about brown/grizzly bears, any of them are scary as hell when you run into them. As I said before I do not hunt them and try to avoid them as much as possible. If I am fishing and they come along I leave. The crap you see on TV where people stay put in close proximity to any bear is against my advice, I say give them their space and avoid conflict, after all it is how they live. However if you have one trying to get in your house or cabin that is quite different, that is part of what I am trying to get across.Just curious, how many big bears have you killed in Alaska? If I missed it, my apologies.
wwace, I have heard both extremes regarding the Barns X bullets. Premature opening and not opening at all. And then I have also heard some very high praises as well. ALL bullets will have faults at one time or another. Simple physics dictates that no one thing can be perfectly repeated at any time. You can come close, but the passage of time itself keeps from perfect copying. Different angles, hide thickness, hell, even just the simple will of the animal itself will make each and every shot different to one degree or another.
agreed with all of the above
Horse pucky to most all of that statement right there. My Marlins are the lightest rifles I own (except for a couple of Savage bolters with synthetic furniture but just by a few ounces) and trust me, I own a LOT of rifles. Bolts actions are a bit less complex in the works but they are no more reliable than a lever action in the hands of someone that actually knows what they are doing. And as far as follow up speed, I can bet you any day of the week I will be faster on followup with one of my .30/30's than ANY bolt action .30cal I own including my Enfields which I am extremely fast on. You sir are the one that is sadly mistaken there.
I did some research also and there were enough doubts about these bullets to support my ban.
I had actually seen one forum post regarding them poorly in an African forum I belong to, but I did not read it until afterwards. It was probably 9-10 months before we had the problems. I recalled seeing the pictures and went back and read the complete post. The post was regarding various Barnes X-bullet problems that a well known guide had seen over several years from multiple clients. The issues ran the gamut from huge entry wounds on small game to not opening at all and hitting unintended animals after passing through the intended target. I had not seen anything like what he had encountered. I ended up relating my experience and talking with the guide several times about this and other subjects. I did not go on a huge quest to find bad data about Barnes. I just took what I saw and formed my own opinion. Again I will never use them because I do not think it is appropriate to use a product I do not trust or have "personal" good experience with. TBBC's, Swift Aframe's are top performers in my experience, Accubonds are a bit softer but I have only used them on one moose so I will pretty much stick to the others. I know they will work if I am lucky enough to see suitable game. Same goes for Nosler Partitions, many like these bullets but I do not like that the front basically turns to shrapnel while the rear acts like a solid and sails right through moose, at least in 250gr 338 they do. I do not like the shotgun effect and the wasted meat so I will use bullets that stay together.It is your prerogative to exclude anything you like, I would never argue that, but just a cursory search on the subject turns up many more times where there is praise for the bullet... than any actual failures.
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=176495.0
Its easy enough to find "something" to support your position.... particularly IF you already have a viewpoint. So...I don't know which way it happened (you first read about the bullet, then had an experience, or had the ONE experience and then researched).
Like you, I searched the subject and did in fact find folks who were not thrilled with the TSX/TTSX. But, many, many....more who were happy with them.
In almost no case...were they faulted for lack of penetration, but I am not doubting your story. Its just way out of the ordinary and you might experiment with the bullet a little yourself to see if it changes your mind.
I do like (and use) some of the premium bullets you promote, but any of them can fail under certain conditions. At that point, a thorough and objective look into "why" that happened is in order. Not a rush to judgement based on one experience.
Same goes for Nosler Partitions, many like these bullets but I do not like that the front basically turns to shrapnel
Bear medicine/ Alaska/ Hunting or SD
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Ok, I have read a bunch of threads with quite a bit of lousy information about bears, Alaska hunting or self defense including calibers, firearms and bullets. The following is my opinion based on personal knowledge and first person related experience.
A bear can be very easy or hard to kill, it all depends on bullet placement and the state of adrenaline of the bear. A very determined bear who is not broken down or CNS hit is literally not going to stop until it is dead. There are tales of kids killing Brownies with .22 long rifle and I have seen a grizzly shot a dozen times with .338 & 30-06, they are always unpredictable.
Hunting:
Rifles: Any modern 7mm or larger caliber with a properly constructed bullet of 160grains or larger is fine for hunting in Alaska unless you are specifically after a coastal Brownie or Kodiak. If you are after the larger bears take at least a 30-06 if you cannot handle a .338 win mag. You do not need anything larger but if you like them calibers up to .416 are ok. Your guide will most likely look at you funny if you show up with a 458 as they are brutal. Do not bring a rifle you cannot shoot well and trust with your life and the lives of your party.
SuperUltraDuperListicMagnums: The short answer is they are not needed for Alaskan game, you are much more likely to be unable to shoot one of these portable cannons consistently.
Action: A good reliable bolt action is the best without any doubt, CRF is adviseable and I highly recommend it. Most hunters here do not use doubles but if I was guiding you I would not be unhappy if you showed up with a single shot Ruger #1. Semi auto, pump and lever actions all have too many moving parts to be considered in my opinion. None of these actions are 100% reliable in Alaskan conditions in rifle calibers.
Sights/Scopes: If you are hunting bears specifically then a low power scope such as a 1.5x5 is usually best. This is what I have used for over 20 years. I would also recommend that your rifle be equipped with iron sights and you have quick detach scope mounts. If you are hunting moose or caribou etc then a 3x9 or 4x12 or something similar is all you need. Spend some money and get quality glass , same with binoculars. You do not need $1000 + optics though they are nice if you can afford them. Personally I use Leupold, Nikon and Burris.
Ammunition: Modern bonded bullets with controlled expansion and high bullet weight retention will work best. Bullets that do not penetrate well will not kill anything here well, bears especially so. My favorites are TBBC, Swift A frames and Accubonds. I do not like Barnes TSX type bullets as I have witnessed very poor performance from them and I do not allow them in my camp.
Solids: You want penetration but this is one case where a solid may not have very good results. If you hit a bear with one and it does not hit the vitals or bone it may have little or no effect on the bear.
Shot Placement: This is the key factor with bears. If you do not hit CNS, vital organs or major bones you just piss off the bear more. Study how bears are built and learn proper placement. Viewed from the side divide him in half and hit him dead center of front half, front leg forward if possible you should shoot halfway up just at rear of leg. High or low shots will have poor results unless you spine him. If you are being charged and the range is close you basically aim at the nose. This is a tough shot, most people are going to have trouble hitting a bear doing 25mph or more and bouncing around until it is close. Ten yards is about your last chance of avoiding getting chewed on.
Self Defense: Each year many bears are shot in defense of life and property here in Alaska. And many more are killed that go unreported for various reasons I will not get into. Do not make the mistake of thinking a Black Bear cannot be dangerous. I had a friend killed and partially eaten by one that weighed about 150lbs. Any bear can be dangerous. I recommend that you always carry bear spray at minimum, even if you are hiking or biking on the edge of town. If you are out in the boonies I highly suggest a firearm as well.
Always have proper training and follow instructions and common sense with pepper spray and firearms. The following are my opinions as to what I would use:
1 12 gauge pump with slugs or slugs/00 buckshot. I have seen several thread where 12ga slugs were disregarded for bear protection because of poor penetration. This is ridiculous. A decent 12 gauge slug will penetrate a bear nearly end to end and is the single best round for close in bear stopping. For smaller bears buckshot also works well doing lots of damage but for the big guys you basically want slugs.
2 Large caliber rifle with quality bullets, expansion must be controlled or you will not get adequate penetration. I still prefer a bolt action for self defense for the same reasons I hunt with one, they work. If all you have is a lever action please use hard cast bullets or they will do little in the way of penetration.
3 Any other rifle, any rifle will do in a pinch, many bears have been killed by the Eskimo people with nothing more than a 222 Remington, but then again they knew what they were doing.
4 Large caliber revolver, 44mag or up loaded with hard cast lead works with the right placement, be practiced with your gun.
5 Any other handgun, 357 mag, 10mm best but any gun is better than nothing. You may not want hollowpoints here.
Remember in any case that if you are being charged and you kill a bear your story will be investigated. Many bears bluff charge to 6 or 7 yards, you need to analyze the situation quickly and correctly and make the proper decisions under great duress. An aggressive bear at close range will test you and your undies.
So in summary for Alaska and anywhere else for that matter it is best to use what works and has always worked. The widely used .338 winmag is the most popular rifle in Alaska. Stay with reasonable velocities and quality ammunition. You do not need some boutique AR caliber to shoot a bear with. Most people here would laugh at you if you showed up with one. Same goes for lever and pump actions, we tend to look at these as deer rifles and not use them here. I have one friend who has always used a BAR 338 even though it has had problems several times. Not me, I will stay with a Mauser type action for hunting and the 12 ga for specific defense work.
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Last edited by wwace; April 25, 2012 at 12:25 AM.
Today, 12:09 AM #39
wwace
Member
Join Date: November 25, 2011
Location: Anchortown
Posts: 62
As a side note I know one of the gentlemen who survived a mauling on Kodiak, the famous one with the Buck knife. And the mauling about a week before killed an aquaintance, it can go either way.
I have attempted to clarify hunting vs self defense as they are two very different things. All of what I write is only my opinion or the opinions of others with whom I have discussed the subject. My gear selections are just what I would choose, nothing else, although I do not like several firearm types I feel any firearm is better than none. I recommend people have both bear spray (regardless of how effective it may be) and a firearm, if you follow this advice you will be looked on favorably in certain situations.
Last edited by wwace; Today at 12:19 AM.