Beating a Dead Horse: Kimber Series I vs. II

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HMMurdock

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I know this has been covered a dozen times but I can't find any of the threads, so I apologize. Please answer the question or simply direct me to an appropriate thread:

I understand that Kimber II models are not as preferred as the older, Series I models... why?
 
I'm surprised no one answered this. I'm far from being an expert on anything, everything I know about it seems someone knows a great deal more about, except some itches I get. :)
The older Kimbers had no firing pin safety block, and many folks absolutely hate the FPS on series II Kimbers. I don't understand the fuss, as, assuming it is timed correctly they work fine, and don't effect the trigger pull as some of us feel the FPS on series 80 Colts do.
Many also complain about quality control issues. Well, I only own one Kimber, a late model Team Match II, and if the older ones were better that's saying a great deal, because I can find no fault with it. Others will disagree vehemently!
 
I'm no expert, but some Series II guns with external extractors were causing problems if I understand correctly. I have one of the early series II guns with the internal extractor and mine has been perfect. Based on what I have read the basic models, which I have, seemed to be more reliable than some of the more expensive versions.
 
"Interesting. So a series II with an internal extractor is just as good as any Series I?"

You may get some pretty antagonistic responses from that proposition. Not having a Series I I couldn't say, but a lot of guys hate Series II Kimbers. I like mine. The other issue is quality control, many feel it has dropped, My personal knowledge is that Kimber stands behind their product, and mine appears to be flawless.
 
Series I guns are great. But like all manufacturers do at some point, Kimber had to make the product better and ended up screwing it up.

There were problems with early seires II guns, namely a "click" where there shoulda been a "boom." Lots of pistols were fixed at home or sent back to kimber because the safetly wouldnt allow them to fire. The pushrod was normally too short. Some guys used a series 70 firing pin, others did some filing on the grip safety, and some sent the pistol back to kimber.

Before they got that sorted out, small parts started breaking. Slide stops, thumb safeties, and grip safeties were normally the parts that did it, and they normally broke in the same area. All the MIM worries you hear about here could probably be blamed on Kimber, Chip McCormick doesnt seem to have any problems (which is who Kimber got thier small parts from for the Series I guns, before they started MIMing themselves).

Before they fixed that, they made another imrovement, the external extractor. Like any 1911 with an improperly fitted extractor, they had a lot of feeding and extracting problems. On more than a few occasions, the slide was swapped in favor of one with an internal extractor, but Kimber wouldnt do it by request. One member here had his pistol go back three times before they fixed it, by changing the slide.

Series I guns never had a problem with the series II safety, MIM breakage, or external extractors. Which is why some people prefer them.
 
I have an eclipse target II with an internal extractor. It shoots as well or better that my custom compact (series I). I think there are lemons in all guns that you pay less than $2000 for. I have yet to get a lemon in a Kimber, but I will never be in the wilson, baer, ed brown league. I'm happy with my kimbers and if I buy anything else it will be a used milspec of some sort to give my kimbers a break!
 
Heresy alert! The following heretical opinion may offend many in the gun community, if you are sensitive to MIM please don't read the following!

Although I've heard of MIM parts breaking I've also heard of forged parts breaking. I personally don't like them, but also don't like paying $2K for a 1911. There seems to be a lot of bad press on MIM but my metallurgist told me most of it is unwarranted. Probably most problems with MIM parts are caused by the same problems that occur with forged parts, that is to say poor quality control.
The density of MIM parts is nearly as high as that of forged parts, though forged parts have the added benefit of a grain structure that is stronger than either MIM, investment cast or machined from barstock. Barstock is usually also a "forged" product initially, then rolled or drawn, which aligns the grain structure lengthwise and adds bending strength perpendicular to the longitudinal axis, but the parts machined from barstock may or may not take advantage of that structural advantage. I asked my metallurgist which he would take if he could buy parts for the same price and his answer was "Well, forged of course". But he quickly added that it wouldn't be a major part of his buying decision.
Here's a little info on MIM if you are interested;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_injection_molding

My company makes parts from barstock in CNC machines, if I had my choices they would go in this order;
Best (minus corossion resistence considerations)
1.Forged chromoly alloy steel heat treated before machining
2.Forged carbon steel HT before machining
3. Low carbon steel carburized and case hardened after machining
4. Investment cast alloy steel.
5. MIM

Stainless, well, now it's getting too complicated!
1. Forged 17-4
2. Forged 416
3. Machined from barstock 17-4, then 416
4. Investment cast (Not sure of alloys used)
5. MIM

Way down the list, beneath contempt for me;
aluminum
plastic
zinc

These are just my personal opinions, others feel aluminum and plastic are superior for guns, but they don't want their barrels made of them. :)

Caveat; I don't make many gun parts yet commercially, though I will be soon, I'm not a gunsmith nor an expert, even though I try to sound like one sometimes. :eek: I own and operate a CNC shop, as do many thousands of others.
 
So if I have a Series II and change the small parts to new, non MIM parts and she extracts fine then I'm 100% golden?
Click to expand...
I wouldnt worry about it. Most MIM breakage occurs in the first thousand rounds.
 
I own a Series I Kimber that I am very satisfied with. Presently in the market for a new 1911, I am in a quandry what to buy. I'm no fan of firing pin safeties in any variety. Kimber's Series II Swartz safety draws lots of criticism. Not being a Series II owner, I can't say if it's deserved or if Kimber just angered the purists in changing a perfectly fine handgun?

I will say this. On a recent trip to a gun store, I dry fired Kimber Series II, Colt XSE, and Springfield loaded. In my experience the Kimber trigger retained that crisp feel of the Series I while the Colt's and Springers had a grittier feel and harder pull.

I'm no expert either but my understanding is that the difference is that the Springer and Colt firing pin safety is activated by the trigger while the Kimber swartz safety is activated by the grip safety, thus leaving a crisper trigger pull.

As an aside, my Kimber is extremely accurate, and I am reluctant to give that up just to avoid a swartz safety. My kid has a Colt XSE. Whether it's in my hands or my kid's hands, my Kimber Compact with a shorter bull barell out-shoots the full-sized XSE hands-down.
 
My three Kimbers were all lemons, and they dated from 1997 to 1998, before any such things as firing pin locks or internal extractors came around for them to use as an excuse for mediocrity. I sold off the Kimbers, and kept my 100% reliable Colt Series 80 Government Model.
 
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