What's all this talk about the Series II Kimber?

[Snowdog]

A few months ago, I found a friend a work owns several Kimber 1911s and remember him telling me during our discussion to never sell my Kimber Custom Classic as they are more sought after than the modern Series II. At the time, I was under the impression it was simply because many folks do not like the new safety, but I've read several negative comments on the Series II here and on TFL and wonder if there's more to it that just that.

There's no chance I'd sell my Kimber, but what exactly is it about the original Kimber that some find more appealing than the Series II? Do the newer models incorporate more MIM parts or something along those lines?
Also, would a used first series Kimber demand a higher price on the market than a used Series II in similar condition?

Thanks in advance.

 

[stans]

The Series II Kimbers have the Swartz firing pin safety system, the pre-series II pistols do not. I have a pre-series II Gold Match stainless and it definitely has a ton of MIM parts. I have already replaced the slide stop, the grip safety is not longer working properly and the hammer and sear are MIM and are a little gritty on the engagement surfaces.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Much ado about nothing. I would not give 10 cents difference for a series 1 versus 2.

 

[Majic]

The purist out there would seek the pre-II models and most will bring a slight premium over the series II pistols.

 

[dmftoy1]

I think most of it's unfounded (from what I've read) but there do appear to be some problems on the really short Series II's with the external extractors.

I've got a Gold Match II and it's absolutely wonderful. The only thing I wish was different was that it's a pain in the butt to break down the firing pin /extractor for cleaning. I seem to have one less finger than I need.

I have a Series one and it's a nice piece too. Both of them shoot much much better than I'm capable of.

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[boing]

When the Series II came out, there were numerous reports of return to battery failures linked to the firing pin block, due to out of spec MIM parts (as the conventional wisdom goes). Some people think it marked a decline in Kimber's QC in general, especially with respect to their small parts (new/cheaper vendor?). Even if many of the S-II guns are excellent (and they are), Kimber's real glory days were back in the pre-Series II era.

JMB purists were also POd at losing their most readily available alternative to Colt's PC Series 80 design.

 

[Zach S]

Not only were there reports of FTRTB, but also a lot of failures to fire, due to the out of spec parts.

I wouldnt shy away from a series II pistol due to the series II safety. If the parts are oversized I have a file, and if theyre undersized a Colt series 70 Firing pin is cheap. An external extractor would be an issue for me though.

I cant tell you how they compare to new kimber's price tags, but my I paid $650 (or 675?) for my Compact Stainless, $650 for my 5" Polymer Stainless, and $550 for my latest, a 5" Classic Stainless (slightly modded, and yes, I'm aware that I got a deal on this one). All are series I, and were in like new condition.

 

[Pointman1776]

Ditto Lone_Gunman and others...I have 3 Series II Kimbers and have not experienced any problems. I think it's more of a religious war between the purists and the heretics. If you like it, like how it feels and looks, shoot it well, are pleased with the shot groupings, and it goes bang everytime you pull the trigger, then what's the problem?

 

[eclipse1]

i agree with pointman. i own two series II and have no problem with the firng pin safety or the external extractor. if you dont like the external extractor or the fp safety dont buy the model. to each his own...

 

[Longbow]

Not only were there reports of FTRTB, but also a lot of failures to fire,

I've seen this happen at the Single Stack Classic match in Barry, IL. last year. The competitor's gun just quit firing all of the sudden. The toggle pin for the FP safety got bent. Some speculated its due to crud build up. Keep it clean if you own one. At my local range they had two S&W 1911 with similar problems. Could these failures be due to the fact, that they share a common FP safety design?

 

[Ford]

Lone_Gunman Much ado about nothing. I would not give 10 cents difference for a series 1 versus 2.

I would agree.
I think most of it is people don't like it because basically the change was made for politically correct reasons. It was not really a necessary change but probabbly made to apease anti-gunners. People say the series II safety messes with the trigger but mechanically it should really have no effect on it. I have both I and II, Blind folded I don't think you could tell me which is which. As far as the extracters go so far I have not had any problem there either.

 

[tlhelmer]

I have a series II TLE-RL that has been 100 % reliable and flawless in function. The finish was not completely and evenly applied, but the function has been perfect.

 

[mattk]

I have owned one series I Kimber and now have one series II Kimber. After a week of owning the series II it fired more rounds reliably than the series I did the whole year I owned it.
Sometimes it just shakes out that way. I think Kimber probably had some problems with first run of Series II guns but cleared things up.
Heck, everyone else does the same thing with new products.

 

[ktd]

Some of my buddies seem to care more if it is a Clackamas (Oregon) or a Yonkers (NY) Kimber as opposed to it being a series I or II. Of course we are in the Northwest. Most wish that if Kimber were going with a FP safety, they should have just used a series80 compatible setup.

 

[norman74]

I notice that all of the people that don't have a preference all own only Series II guns. Interesting.

I own two Kimbers, both Series I guns, both purchased used after the introduction of the Series II. I bought an internal extractor TLEII new a year or so ago and promptly sold it. I did not do my research prior to buying it, and once I saw that internal safety I knew I wanted nothing to do with it. I have several issues with it:
1) There is no point. What problem is the system solving?
2) Since there is no benefit, it is nothing more than a liability. It is simply extra parts that could break, and if they break it will prevent your pistol from functioning.
3) The pistol may not function without a perfect grip. A Series I will fire with the grip safety depressed most of the way but not all of the way. In a high stress situation I am not 100% confident that I will get a perfect grip. If the grip safety is not fully depressed a Series II gun will not fire.
4) I object to all of these manufacturers thinking they know what's best for me.
5) My Series II gun needed to be cleaned meticulously between range sessions. My Series I get's cleaned every 1000 rounds or so.


What is the likelihood that the parts will fail at a critical moment? I have no idea. However, since I cannot find any benefit to the system, it's not a percentage game I want to play.

 

[Matt-man]

I don't see what the big deal is about the firing pin safety. Putting in a standard firing pin renders the firing pin safety ineffective. If you really want to feel better, you can also get rid of the rest of the Series II parts.

 

[YammyMonkey]

A buddy of mine has a series II and did have an issue with the FP safety. He would hit the grip safety enough for the hammer to fall, but not enough for the safety to disengage. Only happened about once every few mags, but was still a PITA. Recock the hammer, grip it good and it would fire no problem. First few times it happened we checked the gun, field stripped it, checked the primer, and this was the only explination I could come up with.

I wouldn't worry about it too much for a range gun, but I would, for simplicity sake and murphy's law factor, remove the SII safety if I were to purchase a new Kimber.

BTW, I own a series I gun myself as well as a SA Loaded.