Beginner's Trap/Skeet gun

[MagKnightX]

I'm in the market for, well, quite a lot actually, but specific to this topic, a shotgun, for use in trap/skeet/etc. The two I currently have my eyes on are the Stoeger Condor Supreme Deluxe 12ga and the Remington 870 Wingmaster, though more the Condor, as the O/U system seems to work well for me. I am, however being drawn to consider the Stoeger Model 2000 and the Benelli Nova. The maximum price is $600 (on a budget here, as much as a Weatherby Orion appeals to me).

I have heard of the reliabilities, shortcomings, etc. of all of them, but there are a few questions I need answered.

Does the Condor SD Single Selective Trigger system mean it automatically switches barrels? Does it have the barrel-selector safety like the Citori?

What choke system does the Condor use? The Model 2000?

I am aware that the best way to determine which gun to get is which one feels right, but I still would like to know the answers to the above questions. Thanks in advance

 

[Dave McCracken]

There's reasons I urge folks to get a Big Four pumpgun as a first shotgun.

The things last longer than most imports,cost little, are widely available, have lots of aftermarket stuff, are as versatile as anything made and are available used. And they've been around for decades.

Imports may or may not have warranty work and parts available in the future. Considering the shifting currents of international politics and trade, it's impossibly to tell whether or not service and parts will be around in 2010.

Once one has a Big Four pump, of course a shotgunner can get anything he/she wants, because all the bases are covered.

$600 breaks down to a used 870, two barrels, and a lot of ammo and range time.

That's a recipe for getting started as a shotgunner if ever there was one.

HTH...

 

[PJR]

Pump guns are reliable but not always the optimum first choice for a beginner. For singles trap there is no issue but when doubles are added to the mix whether doubles trap, skeet or sporting clays, a pump can be a handicap to a new shooter. In addition to everything else a new shooter has to learn he must remember to shuck the action on doubles. So as much as I love the 870, I wouldn't recommend it to a new shooter.

The Stoeger Condor is a Brazilian-made gun that I'm not very famliar with but it is a double and at least on their website there appears to be a corporation connection to Benelli and Franchi two pretty reputable names in the shotgunning world. But as Dave McC says, good doubles aren't cheap and the cheap ones aren't always good. If you are fixed on a low-priced double, I'd suggest you take a look for a Lanber. These Spanish-made o/us are very popular entry level guns in the UK.

For a beginner's gun I most often recommend a Remington 1100 autoloader. It's within your price range and doesn't have the drawbacks of a pump gun when it comes to shooting doubles. With a choked-tubed barrel it will be great for playing all the games and hunting as well. You could also check out the used gun market. Clay shooters are regular gun switchers and often good condition gas guns are available at very good prices. And if you don't want to continue in the sport, you can always resell the gun and likely get back what you paid for it.

Paul

 

[Jim Watson]

I am with PJR.

Trapskeetetc or trapskeetsportingclays is not all one word and it is not all one sport. I am sure that a dabbler can have fun at all with one gun and that a real expert can do pretty well at all with one gun, even a pump.
But if you want to do reasonably well with reasonable effort, or if you want to really excel, some amount of specialization will help.

I used to shoot a good deal of ATA trap and wanted to do my best at it, even at the expense of skeet scores or bagged game. A friend started me out with a Remington 1100 TA and I did OK. But I figured there was room for improvment, so I got a Browning, then a Winchester, then a Perazzi, then another Browning, then another Perazzi, in the meantime trying out everything else that I could borrow. But the Remington broke the most targets for me and it is the only one of that lot that I still shoot. I still have one Browning O/U in case I get back into it enough to want to shoot a lot of doubles, but it is the Remington that gets out for recreational trapshooting.

I have a field grade Anschutz O/U that I shoot recreational skeet with; and it would probably do for sporting clays with a change of choke tubes. Maybe one day I will shoot a straight, but I have NO intention of getting into the tube changing rituals of the competitive skeet shooter.

A pump would be fine for trap singles. But it will take extra effort to develop the shucking skill for trap doubles and for skeet or clays where doubles are always included.

So my short answer is a Remington 1100. Not 11-87, I have heard too many bad reports about them. The Beretta 3XX guns are good, too.

I am not familiar with the Condor, but the general term "single selective trigger" means that you can select which barrel fires FIRST. The change to the other barrel is automatic, just pull the trigger again. Some barrel selectors are incorporated in the safety (Browning, Ruger), some are separate (SKB, Kreighoff), and the Beretta O/Us have a separate button on top of the safety slide. Avoid an automatic safety or have it disconnected for target shooting. My 1100 has no safety at all, it is used only for trapshooting and is never loaded except to call for a target.

 

[Traveler]

There are valid points to everything that has been said before. But since it's free I'll add my opinion (and it's worth what you pay for it).

While the pump gun is a good value I cannot recommend it. It is strong, reliable, and it will have a longer life than most users. But they are heavy, require phyisical effort on the part of the shooter to cycle, and tend to be longer than needed. They are also among the more difficult guns to fit to the individual.

The O/U would be my choice for several reasons. They can be fit to the shooter with better effect, they tend to be anywhere from two to four inches shorter with the same barrel length, they are much better ballanced, and they are much easier to clean.

They are also much safer for the novice as it is very easy to tell exactly how many cartridges are loaded.

Other considerations are the facts that there is an advantage to having two different chokes available for the same shot, Doubles have much better triggers than pumps, and the double guns hold value better.

All that being said, I would highly recommend you look for a gun other than what you have your eyes on. $600 will get you a used O/U with some properties that will nullify the criticism and cancel out the benefits of the pumpgun crowd. Used Citori's, Winchester 101's, Miroku Charles Daly's (the old Citori), Nikko Gold Eagle (the Win 101 in plain wrap), or and SKB 500 are all within that price range. And all of these guns have parts readily available. Better yet, they are designs that do not require much in the way of maintenance to start with.

If I were an instructor, or was just going to introduce someone to shotgun sports, I would take the easy way out, and try to give them as much of an advantage as possible. Because if they don't break birds with a minimum of effort it will be hard to get them to continue. The O/U may cost more initially, but there's a reason for it; they are the easyist, best all around choice to learn on. And, unless you're going through a tactical shotgun course, you will never find a pump gun at any sporting shotgun school.

Last, you will never hear a double gun owner lusting after a pumpgun, but pumpgun owners are universally hoarding money to buy a real shotgun.

 

[PJR]

Last, you will never hear a double gun owner lusting after a pumpgun, but pumpgun owners are universally hoarding money to buy a real shotgun.

Not so IMHO.

As a dedicated double gunner, I lust after a pristine condition Winchester Model 12 28 gauge skeet gun preferably without a Cutts compensator, a Model 42 in .410 and a 70's vintage 20 gauge Remington 870. My lust becomes close to uncontrollable if the wood is well figured.

And as for pump gunners hoarding their money to buy a "real shotgun." I'll let them speak for themselves as they surely soon will.

Paul

 

[MJRW]

Wow, traveler, you're one of THOSE guys. I've always wonder where you guys head to after you are done thumbing your noses at us plebeians with our lowly 870s and 500s. By the way, I just want know where you guys go to so I can not go there.

 

[jzimm9mm]

I recently purchased a shotgun for clay games. I chose the Browning Gold Fusion in 28" barrel, which is an autoloader. I picked it because it comes with 5 chokes and a hard case. Since I was starting from scratch it helped a lot to have most of the accessories I needed. There is currently a $50 rebate from Browning on all their Gold shotguns. I got it at Gander Mountain for about $670. ($799 -10% for getting the Gander Mountain Mastercard -$50 from Browning)

It might be slightly over your budget, but when you figure that chokes will cost you around $20 a piece, and with a O/U you'll need two of each, it starts to look pretty resonable. I've seen some bad reviews on this gun on the internet, but it's been great for me and I've been shooting at least as well as my buddy who shoots a BT-99 for trap and a Citori XT for skeet (about $3000 worth of guns).

Jer..

 

[Wolfy]

Buy a Beretta 390 Galyan's has then for $470. As reliable and dependable as they come.

 

[Jim Watson]

I used to live next door to the town repair gunsmith and would hang around and hold stuff and learn what I could. We called the Model 12 the gunsmith's friend, because there were a lot of them and they usually needed work. And I never could hit much with the one I briefly owned.

Remington 870 was and is a sound serviceable box of stampings, seldom much trouble but not very thrilling.

His personal gun was a Remington Model 31 TC. Now there is a nice pump gun, The Ballbearing Cornsheller, with vent rib milled in ONE PIECE with the barrel. Slick.

 

[MagKnightX]

Wolfy:

What model 390? I don't think there is just a plain "390," but I could be wrong. What type of chokes does it take? Chamber size?

Also, does anybody have a link to a site that tells what the measurements of a stock mean, like length of pull and drop at comb and that?

 

[Wolfy]

MagKnightX the 390 I saw was synthetic stock 3" chamber and had 3 choke tubes not sure which ones. Here are a couple of links to help you out
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=692

On the second page of the thread there is an indepth description.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/searches/P4toe9jr-NoAAAxmPQI-1.htm

Here is a link showing the 3901 going for $550 new. The MSRP on the 3901 is $730 so you can cut about $100-150 off the MSRP. The catalog shows the 3901 comes with F,M,IC chokes.

Hope this helps you out.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Actually, Traveler, I'm hoarding money to buy more 870 stuff.

It's not hard to ID 870 owners. We're the ones trying not to look smug and condescending as we stand easy on the trap line while someone else fumbles around digging a hull out from behind an extractor on a shotgun costing more than my car.

We're the folks NOT carrying around a spare trigger group.

We're the folks who bring no backup gun to a big shoot because we'll not need it.

We're the folks whose discretionary income goes into ammo, range tickets and lessons instead of high dollar, tempermental shotguns that do not hit any more targets than our stamped metal wonders.

Yeah, if I hit the Lotto for 40 acres and a mule, I'd probably pick up a fancy O/U or maybe an old Fox SxS 16, or both. But it'd be to have something different, not necessarily better.

There just isn't better...

 

[Traveler]

Yes, I'm one of those.

...a guy who believes that fit, balance, and a good trigger are worth paying for up front.

...a guy who's seen people put thousands of dollars into trying to correct those things on inexpensive (initial cost) shotguns.

...a guy who believes that higher safety and less effort make the game more enjoyable for the beginner; and for those who have to share the range with them.

...a guy who prefers quality over quantity.

...a guy who believes that, in these times of pickup trucks that have an average cost over $30,000, $1000 is not a lot of money to spend on a good shotgun. Actually, put that way $5,000 isn't a lot. It doesn't take a genius to realize which will last longer and retain it's value better.

Don't get me wrong. I like, use, and own pump guns. But experience makes me a believer in the simpler, safer, better balanced gun being the best choice for a beginner.

 

[MJRW]

Oh, traveler, let's be honest now. You weren't speaking about that. You were speaking about "lust" for the double. Which is indicative of my problem (and to me looks like Mr. McCracken's, as well). You smugly assumed those of us who shot pumps and semi-autos "universally" secretly want the over/under but are both incapable of possessing such a shotgun and are ashamed to be shooting our lowly pumps and semi-autos.

 

[Black92LX]

i started out with an 870 28'' bbl and a fiberoptic site. and only spent half of your maximum 600 bucks. you would still have money for other guns my buddy started out with the Benelli Nova 28'' bbl. i like the feel of my 870 better. but to each his own

 

[Gary G23]

870

 

[SDC]

Just for starting out, there's no reason you couldn't use a 2nd-hand 1100 or 11-87; that's what I started out with (now use a Citori O/U), and it'll break the targets as well as anything else, if you do your part. Trap shooters have got to be the single most "gimmicky" group of shooters I've ever met; there are characters out there who won't shoot unless they're wearing their lucky socks, or some other such nonsense, and that carries over onto their choice of shotguns. The bottom line is, shoot what YOU'RE comfortable with, and let them worry about breaking THEIR targets. As for "forgetting to pump" your 870, I do fine with mine at skeet, and can't say I've ever "forgotten to pump it".

 

[Dave McCracken]

Uh, Traveler....

The heaviest trigger on the 6 870s here's about 5 lbs. Two are under 4 and ALL are crispnclean.

Boss used to balance their fine game guns 3 3/4" ahead of the rear trigger unless ordered otherwise. By Godfrey, that's where the TB does also!

As for fit, mine do. That has to do with geometry and ergonomics, not action style and finish.

Last Monday I hit the range with the new barrel on the T.B. Even with a choke tube I suspect is non concentric, I called for one bird from low gun, took my time mounting, and busted it cleanly 20 feet off the deck 50 yards out. That doesn't happen too often with ill fitting, badly balanced shotguns with bad triggers held by good but not great shotgunners.

As for safety, it occurs between the ears, not the hands.

 

[PJR]

Well Dave, in fairness, EVERY gun is tempermental if your benchmark is an 870. A more durable shotgun just doesn't exist.

As you note, all of the qualities Traveler desires in a gun can be acquired for far less than the price of a premium over/under.

And if resale value is any indicator, the 870 holds its value as well as any gun as a quick check of the used rack in any gun store will tell you.

Some owners of high dollar guns think they are more knowledgeable, discriminating in their tastes and somehow superior because the bank account was large enough to afford a gun with a name starting with a B, a P or a K. They are wonderful guns but there is nothing magic about them. The target doesn't care how much the gun costs only whether the pellets hit the mark and the scorecard is a great equalizer.

Paul

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good points,Paul, but I don't think Traveler is being a snob about this. He just has a different idea of what constitutes excellence. I'm aware that quality is not often associated with reasonable prices, but the 870 is not the only anomaly.

Winners at the Grand National used Perazzis more than other makes, but two common other trapguns were the Model 12 and the 1100.

 

[Sven]

Took Dave's advise and I'm starting with a Wingmaster, 26". Will double as a home defense gun. Eventually, I may 'graduate' to an O/U - we'll see. Range report soon!