Being liberal does not make you an anti

[JImbothefiveth]

Yeah, Jimbo, you keep working to alienate all those of us on the left,

I'm not trying to alienate you. I'm telling you not to vote anti-gun.

and stick with your support of the GOP.

Why should I give the antis my vote? It would just tell tham that I am okay with or don't care too much about their hatred for the second amendment.

That's a certain strategy to preserve your 2nd Amendment rights, given their overwhelming political power across the country, isn't it?

Your alternative is to vote Democrat despite them being anti-gun. Why should they change if you keep them in office?

I'll say it again: linking support for the RKBA to one party is extremely risky, because then our rights are tied to the fortunes of that party.

I agree. Unfortunantly, we have to, because the other party hates our rights, and believe they are what causes the violence in Mexico. (Despite the fact the cartels get grenades and machine guns)

A much better strategy is to get both of the major political parties to acknowledge our 2nd Amendment rights, which is what I and a lot of other liberal gun owners are trying to do.

How? You will vote for them anyway, why would they change their views if they get your vote anyway.

 

[Mainer2009]

I've got a buddy who's a serious lefty...I bring a gun to work from time to time to show to a co worker, and when my liberal friend is there, he acts all nervous about the gun, he'll walk over, ask to handle it, so I let him, then he procedes to pick it up like it's a stick of dynamite with a lite fuse, puts it back down, and then usually says "be careful with that". I was talking about guns a different time &about how I wanted to buy a certain one, and he jumped into the conversation with "thats just what everyone needs...more guns"...with a sarcastic tone, you see, he's the sort of fella who likes to have a gun or two himself...but doesn't really want anyone else to have one. He told me he has a Sig 9MM, with laser grips, and a special eye apparatus that you can wear, and see the laser at night, when the naked eye cannot, he also has a Remington model 870 12 gauge.....God forbid the rest of us have a gun though....we're pretty good friends, but we butt heads constantly on politics and rights...especially the right to defend yourself, wich seems to be getting neglected.

Another person I know, nice lady, hunter, outdoorsperson....overheard me having a conversation at work with a buddy about a cerrtain revolver I wanted...a snubby, with crimson trace laser grips....she butted in the conversation and asked why on earth I would want a gun like that, and that it's not used for hunting, so why have it? I politely looked at her and said
"I don't think I have to explain myself to you, this is still America, isn't it?"...so she went back to minding her own buisness......

 

[robctwo]

I continue to participate in these discussions because I believe that we all need to continue talking to each other. There used to be a generally held belief in America "I may not agree with you, but I'm willing to fight and die for your right to think and say it". Not sure that many hold with that any more.

We also used to say that it was better for 99 guilty people to go free than to wrongfully convict one innocent man. That's gone, much to our mutual loss.

Some of the founders of our country were very concerned about the establishment of an aristocracy of super wealthy. Many today listen to the super wealthy in the media and buy their arguments that it's unfair to tax them, at all. Forbes had an interesting article a month or so ago. They were pointing out how well the current tax situation is. The wealthiest 400 tax payers in 2006 had an average adjusted gross income of $263,000,000. They paid 17% federal taxes. I'm around 30+% and earn less than $150,000. The talking heads have many of us convinced that's fair.

Many have used the gun issue as a wedge in the past. My Senators and Representative are not going to make that mistake again. I talk to them about it by email on a regular basis. There are a surprisingly large number of gun owners who are staunch supporters of gun rights and at the same time in favor of many issues strongly advocated by the democratic party.

I got my first check under the new tax table. More $ in my pocket. I'm voting my self interest.

 

[richyoung]

I am a capitalist, a union supporter and favor taxing incomes over $250,000 at 90%.

You are NOT a capitalist - but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better....

 

[Paladin7]

This is an interesting discussion...

I don't think the standard party definitions apply anymore. I like Mark Levin's definition... Conservative and Statist.

A Conservative, no matter their party affiliation would support the Constitution and the God given rights of individuals in the civil society.

A Statist wants power to be concentrated in the Government and ultimately in themselves. Look at the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto and you will get a very clear picture of where and who the Statists are in this country.

Many Democrats I know are in the party for historical reasons, family reasons, because of their union, or because they are socially liberal. These folks are not the hard left Statists and appear very confused to me. They end up voting for Statists who take away their Liberty and diminish this Country time and time again.

To get back to the original statement that started this thread, if I saw Obama stickers on the cars of fellow gun owners, I would introduce myself and politely challenge their views as I believe all RKBA Supporters should do. To not do so, would be akin to allowing your friends to drive drunk.

YMMV

 

[JImbothefiveth]

They paid 17% federal taxes. I'm around 30+% and earn less than $150,000.

Somewhere you got messed up here. How much of your earnings you pay as taxes varys by how much you make. The more you make, the greater percentage you pay. There is no way you are paying a greater percentage of your earnings as taxes than that person. You would pay 28 percent, he would pay 35 percent. There is absolutely no way that could be true unless he gave a ton of money to charity.

got my first check under the new tax table. More $ in my pocket. I'm voting my self interest.

A trillion dollar deficit and the 2nd amendment are worth $15 a week?

And besides, with Ford's problems, taxing them certainly isn't worth $15 a week to me. It might even cost me my house.

 

[Paladin7]

If you support taxing incomes over $250,000 at 90% you are no Capitalist.

This will kill off the growth engine in the US Economy (small business and large business for that matter).

Think about it. What incentive would anyone have to invest in a business and try to grow it. People who earn this income are already very heavily taxed and their businesses are very heavily regulated. And they employ folks like you.

What you are proposing is a Statist aim supported by the 2nd Plank of the Communist Manifesto.

Stop trying to punish success and steal someone else's income.

Cut taxes, cut unnecessary regulation, cut the size and growth of Government back to Constitutional limits. Allow people to keep the money they earn and invest and spend it as they see fit. This creates growth and prosperity that benefits us all.

You live in the greatest Country in the World... get educated and fight to preserve Liberty.

 

[robctwo]

You see, that's the problem. You are substituting your logic, or that of some commentator for the facts as reported by the IRS. Capital gains are taxed at 15%. My ordinary income from wages is over 30%. They keep telling you it's fair, and you believe them. I stopped.

They want us to argue over guns, gays and abortions because they know that if 99% of us ever voted our pocket books they would be toast.

I continue to be amazed that 2% of the population has a pretty good chance of convincing 49% of the population that the 2% deserves all the money.

Here's the link: http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/29/irs-high-income-personal-finance-taxes_0129_wealthy_americans.html

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Capital gains are taxed at 15%. My ordinary income from wages is over 30%. They keep telling you it's fair, and you believe them. I stopped.

If you made your money through capitol gains, you would pay less taxes too. It might not be fair, however, new taxes would hurt the economy. It would be much better to lower capitol gains taxes for those with lower incomes.

They want us to argue over guns, gays and abortions because they know that if 99% of us ever voted our pocket books they would be toast.

Not me. Higher taxes mean less jobs. They can keep their $15. Higher taxes mean an already struggling employer has to fire more people. I could lose my house. To me, my house or a co-worker's house isn't worth $15. I'll take a job, a house, guns and religion.

It's easy to say that we need to raise taxes until your it's your employer that has to fire massive amounts of people.

 

[EHL]

squabbling over economic issues does nothing to help the discussion. We are talking about RKBA. (by the way, the assertion that America doesn't vote with their pocketbook is pure rubbish. Look at what won BO the election. Americans got scared and voted for the nanny state)

I'll say it again: linking support for the RKBA to one party is extremely risky, because then our rights are tied to the fortunes of that party. A much better strategy is to get both of the major political parties to acknowledge our 2nd Amendment rights, which is what I and a lot of other liberal gun owners are trying to do.

I'd like to hear ideas about HOW to do this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:banghead:

I see the biggest obstacles being the Brady Campaign, Stop Handgun violence, NOW, ACLU, Million Mom March, All of Hollywood, media, George SOros being in bed with the DEMs as being a HUGE road block in the way of changing the Dems (and other GOP) from being pro RKBA. How the heck do we cut the cords between all of these very powerful groups with lots of money and influence and end the issue of RKBA being up for debate. To me, I think it's absolutely ludicrous that we even have to debate the issue. It's like if we were debating whether or not to continue having the 1st amendment!!!! There would be an uproar from everybody if somebody proposed an to end free speech. Yet we don't have anywhere near the same reaction when gun grabbers like these organizations and their puppet politicians bring up a new AWB or "sensible gun laws". Lets equate that with "sensible speech laws" in order for government to control "dangerous speech" and "dangerous assemblies". See how ludicrous it sounds when we change the amendment from 2nd to 1st???

So my question to you libs out there that vote against RKBA (lets face it, you do), how do you cut off the anti gun element from the Dems????

By the way, kudos to the mods for not closing this thread as it has been very interesting and well thought out!

 

[JImbothefiveth]

We need to ban commas and parenthesis.

 

[Paladin7]

robctwo, with all due respect, you have bought into the Statist agenda hook, line and sinker. Statists are masters at creating class warfare to mask their aim, which is to take your Liberty.

The question you should be asking is, "Why am I paying exorbitant taxes and who do I need to support and vote for to get this changed."

Btw, you also benefit from a lower capital gains tax when you invest. It affects everyone who invests and by raising it you affect everyone who invests, NOT just the rich.

Stop working to punish success. The folks you are being led to demonize create wealth by actually producing, which is something the Government is incapable of doing. These folks build and grow businesses that employ people like you and me. This creates wealth and prosperity. Which is why we have the highest standard of living in the world.

Here's some advice...get Mark Levin's new book, "Liberty & Tyranny" and/or "Free to Choose" by Milton Friedman and get educated on this subject.

 

[2ndAmFan]

Both of our major political parties are trampling the Constitution. They've been at it for a long time. The War on Drugs, the War on Terrorism...they're just thinly veiled wars on our Constitution. Maybe they didn't start out that way, but that's what they've become.
Pick your poison! It won't stop unless the American people make so much noise the politicians have to listen, and everyone, no matter whether they're Liberal or Conservative, should be united in restoring all of our Constitutional rights. The Constitution of the United States is one of the most remarkable and far-seeing documents of all time, and it has allowed a nation made up of many disparate groups to grow and prosper. It isn't broken, but our government is doing their best to fix it, relegating it to the status of a museum piece. I don't want to live in a totalitarian state, neither does anyone I know, but that's where we're headed.
Guaranteed right against blanket warrants, unreasonable search and seizure without due process of law: War on Drugs ended that.
Denial of Habeus Corpus applied to American citizens here in the US as well as enemy combatants captured on foreign soil: War on Terrorism.
FISA=guidelines for spying on American citizens under a secret court, and government officials permitted to "edit and alter" evidence gathered: War on Terrorism.
I could go on, but why? I'm grateful I still have some rights, including RKBA, though it's been watered down. I know some will disagree with me, and that's ok, but IMHO arguing over which side is worse is pointless when it's obvious both are guilty.
It's fortunate that some of the antis are finally waking up to the fact that it isn't just gun owners who are in danger; it's all of us.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Guaranteed right against blanket warrants, unreasonable search and seizure without due process of law: War on Drugs ended that.

Not commenting on whether or not it's a good idea. However, they still have to get warrants and still have to use due process

Denial of Habeus Corpus applied to American citizens here in the US as well as enemy combatants captured on foreign soil: War on Terrorism.

enemy combatants captured on foreign battlefields never had Habeus Corpus.

 

[MisterMike]

I don't think the standard party definitions apply anymore.

That's so true; my personal belief is that the great corrupting influence in politics is the power that is vested in the Republican and Democratic parties. Make no mistake about it--you can't be either a true liberal or a true conservative and fully buy into either party's platform. Over the years that have cherry picked various interest groups to aggregate power, with scant regard to how that fits into an overall ideology.

Getting back to the original premise of this thread, no one should be deluded by the party affiliation of any candidate. It is not necessarily a very good indicator of where that candidate stands on the issues.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

It is important, especially if they fall to party influence, although I'd vote for a conservative Democrat before a liberal republican

 

[EHL]

Lot of red herrings being thrown out to distract from the discussion. Enemy combatants has little or nothing to do with RKBA. Economic issues have little relavance to my being able to own a firearm of my choice. Abortion is not related to RKBA either.

Deluding yourself with the common argument "both parties are terrible and are both stripping us of our constitutional rights, therefore I am justified in voting for the party that practically has the monopoly on the gun control agenda" is dangerous. Sure both parties have infringed on the constitution. No less than Abraham Lincoln was the worst Constitutional offender, but do we dwell on the past or focus on the here and now?? What party or groups are currently out to destroy our 2nd amendment rights? I'll be the first to admit that many, including myself, would love to see either party really come out gungho in support of the 2nd amendment. Right now, we have to settle with the tepid support for it offered by the GOP instead of accepting the outright contempt for it offered by the MAJORITY, (not all) of the Dems.

How do we end the debate about the 2nd amendment and whether or not we even have a right to enjoy it? It seems this question has definitly not been resolved or we wouldn't be entertaining AWB ver. 2 and we'd have that pesky Hughs amendment repealed.

 

[patrick526]

I think I made a lot of misunderstanding about the phrase I made "My political views are different from my personal values".

It's just like this... you have a very good boss that handles your company very well. But that's just it, you don't want him to be a friend because you have a lot of differences. There are limitations of how you like a person/party. If that person/party is doing good on his job, then by all means he is the best bet for the job! But other than that, you distance yourself from him because it will not be wise for you to become friends with him because of his personal attitudes.

That's how I see things between the Democratic and the Republican Party. I sided with the Democrats regarding how to handle the country. But for handling our culture and morals, I leave that to the American people who has the freedom to practice the right thing to do as being a Christian.

Please don't make this discussion political. Every one of us has different points of view. I'm just sharing mine and I respect everybody's thoughts on this also.

God bless!

 

[Paladin7]

Please look into the importance of Private Property Rights in the Civil Society...

When you do you will gain an understanding of why what a few of you have referred to as "Economic Issues" have everything to do with RKBA...

 

[JImbothefiveth]

That's how I see things between the Democratic and the Republican Party. I sided with the Democrats regarding how to handle the country. But for handling our culture and morals, I leave that to the American people who has the freedom to practice the right thing to do as being a Christian.

Again, you said you are catholic, so I'd seriously discuss this with your priest. You don't repeal other homicide laws because "people can choose not to"

Besides, with the boss his only goal is to make money. The president does more than that. The president also has power over freedom.

It's like this: You have one boss who makes you sit in a small cubicle all day and won't let you talk to the coworkers. (AWB and fairness doctrine) He is also terrible to the other workers, (abortion) and he charges you fines if you don't act perfectly. (Taxes) Is that worth the extra $15 a week he'll give you? You're not immune if you're poor. Taxes on ciggarettes, for example. Those hit the poor the worst. In addition, there is a chance that he will raise taxes on you in other ways, even if you don't make that much. They have been known in the past to try and raise taxes on people that earn above $42,000, and $150,000 a year is rich to a lot of people, it's more than I earn.

Just think about what $15 is really worth.

 

[robctwo]

I've been watching the no taxes, low taxes, no government agenda in our country for the past forty years. I don't like the result. I'm not going to concede that my disagreement with the free marketers is uninformed.

I do believe that it is my right to keep firearms to protect me and mine from whatever occurs in our society.

I was one of the guys stocking up not for fear of what Obama was going to do, but for fear of what Dick "Blackwater" Cheney had in mind for the perpetual Presidency of GWB.

An armed society should be a polite society.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I've been watching the no taxes, low taxes, no government agenda in our country for the past forty years. I don't like the result.

It got us out of a recession. In fact, it worked better than FDR's new deal. While DFR's new deal did not end the deppression, only reduce it's effects, in the 80's Reagan was able to get us out of a recession with tax cuts. And if you tax the employers at 90 percent, do you really believe they would be able to afford to hire you?

 

[hso]

I think we've had a good discussion and I applaud everyone that tried to show respect each other in spite of heartfelt divergent views that are difficult to respect.

That said, we've run the course on this after seven "pages" and should leave this conversation for another day.