Bennelli M4 mag extentions

[Wingnut13]

Hi guys, Today I walked into my local shop and the owner had a new part for me.... well he had a stack actually. Tac-Star is making a mag tube extention for the M4 now. It was news to me, haven't had a chance to ops check yet though. Nice to have a sub - $200 option. -wingnut13

 

[Kangspec]

not worth of going jail for.

 

[Wingnut13]

?? This is not an import part... USA made. Doesn't make it a SBS Why jail time ??

 

[CWL]

Will it change the weight and balance of the very-light shotgun?

Most tube-extensions are pigs to handle compared with smooth and well-practiced reload drills.

I'd stay away from gizmos and gadgets designed to separate you from your money.

 

[Youngster]

I would not put a Tacstar anything on an M4, there are other low cost options available that don't cost all that much more and are probably much better quality.

The SRM unit for one.

 

[Wingnut13]

Well, I tried it out today. Now I've had experience before with tac-star but I had some hopes...... So you guys know the drill, install is nothing, done. The mag extension is blued and the shotgun is grey, strike one. (not a big deal, but it is MY shotgun) The real problem I have is the awful noise the spring makes as you load/unload rounds out of the tube. It just screeches, no way to be quiet about it. No problems function wise but off it comes in the AM. Next please. ~wingnut13

 

[Girodin]

He is referring to it being a 922r violation to have your foreign made Benelli be a non sporting gun, because of the mag extension. This is apparently a debatable issue as to whether it applies. Debatable means that you cannot say you wont be subject to prosecution for it. Violating federal guns laws is serious stuff. Some will argue the odds of prosecution are low but should it happen it will cost you dearly even if it is only a very expensive legal battle in which you are ultimately vindicated.

 

[Labyrinth666]

What do u need an extension for anyway? 5-6 rounds is plenty for just about anything... It isn't worth getting in trouble with the law for.

 

[rjrivero]

You can't put an extension tube on a shotgun? What about all those Benelli shotguns sporting 10 round tubes in Multi-Gun and THREE gun Open Class? Are those all illegal TOO?

I'm kind of confused here.

 

[Justin]

Benelli shotguns are one of the top choices for 3Gun competitors. I'm hard pressed to think of a time I've ever been to a 3Gun match and didn't see a magazine tube extension on a Benelli.

Hell, my M2 has (among other modifications) a Nordic Components magazine tube extension on it:



If there's a legal issue with this, it's the first I've heard of it, as I've seen nothing covering this topic on any forum, gun blog, or website dealing with the legalities of firearms.

 

[Girodin]

I've seen nothing covering this topic on any forum, gun blog, or website dealing with the legalities of firearms.

I take it that does not include this one http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16714

or this one http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=127216 or dozens of others.

How about hearing about it in the Unites States Code (USC)? Sure it wont name your benelli by name but it is arguably included by the language of the code.

I would warn you that there are a lot of people putting out info about 922r few if any of them have any legal training. If you haven't been to law school you probably don't know squat about the law, I'm not only talking doctrinally either. I wouldn't take any non-lawyers opinion about what the law is.

That said it is certainly arguable that adding an extended mag tube alone is a violation of Federal Law. It may not be something that is being actively prosecuted but that does not mean it is not illegal or could not be prosecuted, but if there was something that attracted the attention of the prosecutors office in the first place they will start looking at all the possible things that they could charge you with guess what they will come across. If the attorney general tomorrow decides he wants to go to war on illegal guns he could start prosecuting people. It is not a viable defense to claim ignorance of the law and it is not a viable defense to say that lot of other people were doing it too.

The law may be slightly unsettled on the issue but being the test case would certainly suck. You not only run the very real risk of winding up in prison (where the last statistics I saw indicate you have at least a 1/4 chance of being sexually assaulted) amongst other consequences but even if you are not found culpable you will pay dearly in attorney's fees.

So no it is not something I am aware of anyone being prosecuted for but some people feel that a couple extra rounds isn't worth assuming whatever risk there is no matter how narrow.

A common cry of RKBA people is that we don't need new gun laws we just need to enforce the ones we already have. That could get interesting.

 

[Girodin]

Also note that if one replaces enough parts with US parts this makes the gun compliant. You may not immediately perceive the difference visually, thus just because you saw a gun with a mag tube doesn't mean it is not a legal gun.

Honestly the smart thing to do is make the gun compliant if you add a mag tube. It can be done, and done at a lower cost than having a good attorney even drive down to the jail to see you. An ounce of prevention is worth a lbs of cure. In short why run the risk, however narrow.

 

[MAX100]

Benelli shotguns are one of the top choices for 3Gun competitors. I'm hard pressed to think of a time I've ever been to a 3Gun match and didn't see a magazine tube extension on a Benelli.

Many law enforcement agents compete in 3 gun matches, including some ATF agents.

GC

 

[Justin]

At nearly every major match I've attended, I've been squadded with Law Enforcement Officers, and not one of them has taken an interest in my shotgun.

That said, upon reading the law, it would appear quite clear that my shotgun is legal. It is not a revolving-cylinder shotgun, nor a copy of the Street Sweeper or Striker 12. On top of that it does not meet the definition of a semi-automatic assault weapon, which is as follows:

(d) A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of—
(1) A folding or telescoping stock,
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,
(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, and →The only "evil feature" on my shotgun.
(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine.

I can see how an M4 with a pistol-grip and a magazine extension tube wouldn't qualify, and of course have been aware of the 922(r) hoops required for converting a Saiga for quite some time.

But unless I'm missing something, I fail to see where my shotgun is in violation of federal law.

 

[Girodin]

What in the world are you quoting and where did you find it? That is not the language of 922r. The following is language of 922r.

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to--

(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.

And here is 925(d) which it cites

(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition--

(1) is being imported or brought in for scientific or research purposes, or is for use in connection with competition or training pursuant to chapter 401 of title 10;

(2) is an unserviceable firearm, other than a machinegun as defined in section 5845(b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (not readily restorable to firing condition), imported or brought in as a curio or museum piece;

(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms, except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled; or

I believer the clause that gets you is "is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." The additional rounds are what pushes it, arguably and likely subject to the agencies interpretation, which is given considerable discretion.

Because a cop or a ATF agent does not arrest or question you does not mean something is legal. Neither of those sets of people know that much about the law. Like I said when this is most likely to become an issue is when there is someother incident that in any way even very indirectly involves the gun and they start looking for all the charges they could bring. Again most people that don't have legal training don't know what the law is, how to find it, or how it is applied.

It would probably cost more to have an attorney look up the laws, find if there is any case law on it, and explain it to you then it would to make the gun compliant to the point where it is not a real question.

 

[Girodin]

Here is some points gleaned from a case, Gilbert Equipment Co., Inc. v. Higgins 709 F.Supp. 1071 S.D.Ala.,1989. (this case was subsequently affirmed on appeal),
deciding some of these issues

Determination of what is a “sport” for purposes of allowing importation of weapons rest directly with Secretary of Treasury through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco. In short if he says it is not sporting it is not and it get arbitrary & capricious standard of review which basically means it is given a huge amount of deference and you need to show he just pulled the decision out of thin air. Even if the court thinks his decision is wrong they wont overrule it if he has some basis for making it.

Further the court held that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm's consideration of weight, size, bulk, design magazine capacity, and configuration, were all logical characteristics for Bureau to consider in determining whether shotgun was readily adaptable for sporting purposes.

In short the ATF can declare whatever they want to be sporting or not. Furthermore they can change their mind about it. Mag capacity is a criteria they have/do use. Leaving the gun the way it was imported is safe. Making it a US manufactured gun by adding requisite US parts is safe. Slapping a mag extension on alone is very questionable. Proceed at your own risk, it may be low, but don't act like there is not a issue there. Further I'll repeat my advice of not taking random internet people's word on what the law is. Look up the code in a legit source your self. Locate the cases your self. Honestly the potential of punishment might be low but the consequences should it occur are very high. It is relatively inexpensive to put yourself on safe ground.

If I was an attorney you'd owe me a few hundred bucks now, think about that.

 

[David E]

The M4, with the pistol grip, requires replacing more parts than the Benellis without a pistol grip with USA made parts to be compliant.

It CAN be made legal and compliant and many have done so.

 

[Robert]

Further I'll repeat my advice of not taking random internet people's word on what the law is.

Does that include you as well? I know many of the same LEO people that Justin shoots with and they are by no means ignorant of the law in anyway shape or form. In fact they are quite the opposite. They are very knowledgeable and would have been the first people to point out any potential legal issues to Justin. But since none here are lawyers I guess all this is just moot.

 

[StarDust1]

I've never seen a tactical M2 or M4 Benelli "without" an aftermarket extension afixed to them increasing capacity!
I have them on both of mine, and both of those have seen plenty of action at the range in the company of both US Marshals and local & state LEO. If it's illegal, it's gonna be a surprise to an awful lot of folks...

 

[Girodin]

LEO people that Justin shoots with and they are by no means ignorant of the law in anyway shape or form.

Ask them who holds ultimate responsibility for declaring what is a sporting arm and what is not.

Ask them what criteria he or she is required to use, what criteria is permissible, what requirements this person is required to show in support of their decision.

Ask them what the various standards of judicial review given to agency findings are, what triggers each of them, and what must be proven.

Ask them to find you cases that purport to affirm or discredit a particular interpretation.

Ask them to name three reliable sources they could use to find the applicable law.

The law is so vast there is not a human in the US that is not ignorant of the law in some way size shape or form and even those who are attorneys and judges are ignorant about a fair ammount of the law. The USC is a huge set of many volumes with thousands of pages in them. Who honestly could know that all. It would be an unimaginable feat to know all of what was is section 18 of the code where 922r is found. The law is very complex. The practice of law is also very complex. That is why it is hard to get into law school, you spend three years facing an abusive workload, and you still have to study for months afterwards to take the bar. At that point you still know next to nothing about being a lawyer. There are a great great great many aspects to the law that most LEO's will know nothing or next to nothing about. Asking a cop for legal advice is akin to asking a physical therapist to preform surgery they having neither the training, knowledge, skills, nor resources to do it properly. This is not meant to be offensive but it is true.

Furthermore it seems to be likely that the law in this area is fluid and unsettled anyone who tells you that they have the definitive answer on unsettled legal questions clearly knows very very little about how the low works.

Does that include you as well?

What do you think these lines following that statement were getting at? It certainly includes me. I'm not giving nor attempting to give legal advice.

Look up the code in a legit source your self. Locate the cases your self

 

[AcceptableUserName]

The people spending 200 dollars for extensions, in my opinion, would be better off spending the 200 on a tax stamp to shorten the barrel to entry-gun lengths.

 

[Girodin]

The people spending 200 dollars for extensions, in my opinion, would be better off spending the 200 on a tax stamp to shorten the barrel to entry-gun lengths.

A blanket statement like that cannot help but to be wrong in some instances. What about the people on here that have already indicated that they use their gun for 3 gun? The extra rounds probably serve them better than a shorter barrel.

 

[Justin]

Ask and ye shall receive.

So based on this letter from the BATFE, it is reasonable to conclude that if you replace the magazine and follower with an American made one, the shotgun now has a foreign parts list of nine, which would be legal and acceptable.

These letters were sourced from a thread at Brian Enos Forums.

 

[Girodin]

So based on this letter from the BATFE, it is reasonable to conclude that if you replace the magazine and follower with an American made one, the shotgun now has a foreign parts list of nine, which would be legal and acceptable.

If that letter has your name on it. You realize those are not binding pronouncements of law? This actually factors into my questions to ask the LEO guys. You realize that they could send a letter to someone else tomorrow making a different decision and counting the parts differently. It is my understanding that there are actually various letters floating around out there where they have counted parts differently. This happens in taxes as well you get a letter that makes a ruling for you, but it is not binding with respect to anyone else.

Also 922r requires having ten or fewer foreign parts, if in a non sporting format and that letter plainly state the part count for a Benelli is 11 parts. This indicates that according to this pronouncement you are breaking the law if you up the mag capacity without losing a part. Removing the follower puts you at 10 as the mag extension is arguably not the whole mag body. It still has as much or more foreign mag body as domestic one. I have seen this interpretation advanced. I would not feel even slightly confident about saying that the extension allowed you to not count the mag body as a part. Also a PG would arguably only be a countable part if you actually had a PG.

Playing it safe I would A) get a letter approving what I wanted to do. B) keep that letter, and copies in a safe places (yes different ones). C) replace as many parts as feasible.

 

[Justin]

I sourced the following letter via a Google search and the official Benelli forum. This letter contradicts the first one. What is particularly notable, however, is that parts list in this letter evidently includes a couple of parts that Benelli doesn't list in their manual.

Also, as you've noted, the letters evidently only apply to the person who made the request.

More info here:
http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19539

Though it only adds to the confusion.