Berni Goetz Whats your take

Status
Not open for further replies.
According to the anti gunners; those fine citizens were exercising their God given rights to rob someone: Let's all take pity in those poor kids. Yep, Goetz comes across as a nutcase.
 
He got a year sentence for the shooting, and served 8 months... Civil was quite different but then he has not paid much to them either from what I have been able to find...

For him it was a situation that he decided on and did, very determined person...The people of NYC as a group should thank him, crime went down;)

He is a perfect example of why many feel guns in the hands of all are wrong...I feel he was justified in what he did, the one shot was not warranted though...

But, the shoot, it is a given you make that decision, you are going to do some jail time and money will be awarded, getting paid is another matter...:what:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz
Goetz was tried before a mainly white Manhattan jury,[17] six of whom had been victims of street crime.[41] He was acquitted of the attempted murder and first-degree assault charges and convicted of criminal possession of a weapon in the third degree – carrying a loaded, unlicensed weapon in a public place.[50] He was sentenced to six months in jail, one year's psychiatric treatment, five years' probation, 200 hours community service, and a fine of $5,000. He appealed, and the appellate court affirmed the conviction and ordered a resentencing for a period of one year in jail without probation. The order of the appellate court was affirmed because the trial court had not erred in instructing the jury that, if it found the People had proved each of the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt, it "must" find the defendant guilty. This was not a directed verdict. Goetz served eight months.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
He did not do a single day in jail for the shooting, the jury found the shooting itself completely justified.
 
Yes, but the thugs were also subject to those same laws.
Click to expand...
So Goetz should have carried a sharpened screwdriver, and waited to be stabbed before pulling it out. Is that what I hear?


Here's my take. What if Goetz had no weapon and was killed in the attack. It wouldn't even make news in NYC and we wouldn't be discussing it.
Goetz did what he thought he needed to do to survive in that dump, and he paid a price, but he's alive. We all make choices.
 
Do the thugs deserve anything? Of course not. Did Goetz act in self defense? Probably.

However, I feel in my gut, that he was living his life waiting for a chance to do it. It's a fine line, in that he didn't seek it out, he just knew that all he had to do was live his life, and the opportunity would find him. If I were on the jury, (based on what I know, which isn't much,) I would probably know he was guilty of manslaughter, but there would not be any proof at all. I would let him go.

As citizens, gun owners, human beings, and THR members, we should live our lives doing everything we can to make sure we never get the chance. I honestly just don't feel he did that.
 
Reminder he did not kill anyone, no manslaughter, no justifiable homcide, nada...

He attempted to do those things ;) Jury did not find him guilty of the attempt either...

As BCCL mentioned...

Just found guilty of a violation, regarding the laws governing firearms in NYC...
 
my response is more important than my opinion....

I'll never visit or spend a dime of my money in NYC.

As for having a pet squirrel.... It actually takes a very, VERY calm and kind person to tame a squirrel. My 8th grade science teacher had one that would sit on his shoulder while he walked around. No one else could touch the thing. He also had a good sized snake and an alligator.
He was one of the best teachers I ever had and his eccentric nature made him all the more interesting.

Each one of us could easily be described as eccentric or a heretic or an infidel or a whatever.... that's irrelevant.

As for Bernie's hubris and incriminating statements..... I strongly suspect that the NYPD detectives buddied up to him, telling him that he was completely justified and that they thought he was totally in the right, only to use every word he spoke against him in court. The advise of my BIL (a state police detective) is to never say anything without a lawyer present. Bernie apparently was pretty naive in his dealings with the police.
 
That william shatner interview was ridiculous.

If I were Bernie, I wouldn't have ever gone back. Based on the story he told to William Shatner, they didn't know who the shooter was or where they went. I would have no problems whatsoever by keeping that secret to myself.
 
Indeed, had Mr. Goetz not turned himself in, it is unlikely he would have ever been caught or implicated in the event.

I do not think he was 'looking' for trouble, I think he understood that 'trouble' was a ubiquity in NY City at that time, and was simply inevetible sooner or later, if one did go anywhere.


He was prepared.


The New York City Police departments and City Government have alwyas been recognised as among the most corrupt.


Any New Yorker knew this, it was common knowledge, legacy, tradition.

However, saying so publically, while in the position he was in, while honest, was an error of tact or diplomacy, under the circumstances, since those so accused pretty well were holding all the Cards, and Mr. Goetz primary Cards, were the positive and supportive to him and for him, of public opinion favoring what he had done.


Had he been unarmed, and beaten or killed, it would have been a private event receiving no mention or press or attention.


His self defence in shooting four criminals in a Subway Car, was easy hype-fodder for the media, which put pressure then on the political machines and their workings.


This was the 'in' that Civil Lawyer used to hype and opine and pander about.


That was the only sickening aspect to the whole - the face, voice and deceit of that civil lawyer talking about the event.


The civil lawyer is a true 'politician', and professional emotion-panderer.


I am sorry it was not him who the four criminals had confronted on that Subway Car...although he was a big guy, and that can make a difference!
 
Last edited:
It would be his mental health he was after I have a feeling, thinking he was in the right and allowing the chips, to fall where they may, to many the man is a hero...
The incident occurred on the Seventh Avenue 2 express subway train in Manhattan on December 22, 1984. It sparked a nationwide debate on vigilantism, the perceptions of race and crime in major cities, and the legal limits of self-defense.[3]
Click to expand...

Death Wish is a movie that comes to mind about this topic...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071402/

How they handled it in the movie, was for most people done correct...

Regrards
 
As a person living in NYC at the time, I never understood why the last shot fired was an issue in the civil case.

How can people be tried and found not guilty in criminal court and than be charged with essentially the same counts in a civil case. .....it doesn't seem right.
 
Bernie Goetz should have lived in the country, not in the middle of slimball NYC. NYC just can't tolerate the idea that a person would stand up for themselves and not depend on the "system" to protect them.

Bernie, right person, right actions, wrong place.
 
I think Bernie liked most parts of the NYC "system" very well. Like most NYC residents, however, he did not care too much for the law-less-ness that was prevelant at the time.

The case was sensationalized by the press and Bernie is known by everyone in NYC. ...just say "the subway vigilante" and everyone in NYC will say Bernie Goetz.
 
I did not see the show but Bernie must be quite old now - say mid 70s?

It is a shame his life was larely ruined by an act that most would say was 100% justifiable.
 
Excuse me but protecting myself from harm is extremely subjective to me.

I'm rather fond of breathing. I don't need any other justification.

If you or anyone else wants to just give in and maybe even die in order to be viewed as "objective" well then just go right ahead.

I'm sure it will look really well on the head stone.
 
He had a 5 shot revolver:what: Faced 4 pretty bad actors and shot all of them...Then walked away from it, leaving them for others... So much for, I would not carry a 38:p Pretty good shooting and cahones :D

The day following this attack, Goetz bought a revolver from a friend in the Greenwich Village section of Manhattan and began carrying it regularly. Goetz applied for a permit to carry a handgun, on the basis of routinely carrying valuable equipment and large sums of cash. His application was denied for insufficient need, as are most such applications in New York City. Later he bought a five-shot, alloy J-frame Smith and Wesson "Airweight" revolver with a shrouded hammer[9] in Florida and had brandished it twice to frighten away would-be robbers before using it to shoot the four men who confronted him on the subway.

At the time of the incident all four men had criminal records, with a total of fourteen criminal bench warrants, although only Cabey had been charged with a felony, armed robbery. All of them had reached the age of majority.
Click to expand...
 
I was born and lived in NYC most of my like...I too am more than familiar with this event.. I don't know what the subways are like there now,but I rode them a lot back then,and they sucked big time...The guys he shot were predators looking for an easy mark,as they thought that's what he was...They were four scumbags who more than likely would have caused a lot more problems for a lot more innocent people in the future had they not run into him...They just got more than they bargained for...In the world we now live proven criminals are given every courtesy and it's usually the law abiding citizen that gets ruthlessly hammered time and time again...If we had a justice system that protected our rights and worked correctly there would probably be no use for threads like these and most of these forums probably wouldn't exist...But we don't..This is why I would think that many here,myself included have found it necessary to apply and obtain lawfully,a CCL...No one is a hero that is forced to protect themselves or possibly take a life while doing so ,but I'm sure if he had not had that gun,his end result would have turned out quite a bit differently.... If, and I hope I'm not, ever in the same or similar situation he was unfortunate enough to be in,I hope at that moment I would be proficient enough to do as good or better than he did...Just my .02...
 
Last edited:
The problem in NYC back then was that the criminal justice system was a revolving door and that is evidenced by the police records of the perps in the Bernie subway shooting case who had long records of criminal behavour but were free to inflict more violence on citizens.

Finally, towards the early 1990s the system reformed and criminals were put in jail for extended periods. This resulted in reducing the number of criminals on the NYC streets.

Today, the NYC criminal justice system is being overwhelmed and criminal activity is rising. The subways have always been dangerous but more so in the "off" hours.
 
Just curious, anyone know statistics for what the mugging and robbery rates were on the New York subway system on December 23rd, 1984????
 
I'm supposed to move to NJ. I might make it PA because of the cc laws in NJ. If I decide to go with NJ since it's where the job is, I won't carry my guns, it being illegal and all.

All this bs about the blacks being criminals. Well, so was BG.

Obey the laws where you live. If you don't like 'em, move or work to change them. Don't act like you've got some 'natural right' to ignore them.

BG is a slime ball. So were the guys shot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
Bernie Goetz and Joe Horn
2 3
Replies
65
Views
2K
JWarren
J
D
  • Locked
Do you have what it takes? (reporter at Valhalla)
Replies
2
Views
998
armoredman
armoredman
P
  • Locked
LEO's, what's your take on this?
2
Replies
44
Views
2K
Glamdring
G
W
  • Locked
(FL) Mass murderer gunned down by citizens 10-14-03 (20 YEARS LATER)
Replies
18
Views
2K
Ryder
R
H
  • Locked
CNN story on recent workplace shootings
Replies
0
Views
323
Henry Bowman
H
Back
Top