Berry's 124gr Hollow Point loading

[engineermike]

I have a Walther PPS 9mm and started loading the Berry's 124 grain hollow point bullets. I found that the C.O.L. that fit into the barrel was 1.045. I put this with 4.0 grains of HP 38 powder and seems to shoot well (No over pressure signs) but can not find any load data that supports this C.O.L.
Does anyone load these bullets at this or shorted C.O.L. of 1.045? The recoil feels less than most all self defense loads I have shot through this gun but I have never loaded outside the published load data before. I am looking for a little guidance here before I load any more.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mike -

Welcome to Reloading !!


First off, HP-38 is also known as Win231, so some books call it one thing, and others the other. Between the 2 names it appears in most reloading manuals.

Berry says to load that bullet as jacketed and use the lower end of the load range. The Hornady 3rd Ed gives a Win231 load for 124gr jacketed as 3.9gr to 5.2gr at 1.040". The .005" difference in your OAL and theirs is inconsequential.

By working up from the 3.9gr load you cover a host of ills. That's a huge spread, so most people would take it in 0.2gr steps, i.e. 3.9gr, 4.1gr, 4.3gr, etc. You should get very happy with the results well before you reach 5.0gr. Top speed is going to be ~1100 fps, so your rounds will end up at 1050 fps which is fast enough for competition or great for general plinking.

Also be aware that if 1.045" barely clears, you'll want to go a tiny bit shorter since all ammo has some variation in length. By going 1.040" you can allow those that come out at 1.043". Follow? There's a numbers game with the tolerances you have to play.



Berry has a new bullet just for tight-chambered guns like yours. It's a 124gr Hollow Base RN that is very accurate and will allow you a greater ranger of permissible OALs. It's not on their web site yet, you have to call and ask Angie or Connie for it. If you are still in the bullet experimenting stage, then they also offer a 9mm bullet assortment. Tell them Wobbly sent you.

All the best!

 

[engineermike]

Thanks Wobbly,
I tried the 1.040 and the 1.050 but the 1.045 patterns the best, also the 3.9 and the 4.1 of the HP 38 did not pattern as well as the 4.0. (Grains) The Hornady Seventh Edition does not show the C.O.L. at 1.040 it only shows 1.075. I will take a look into the hollow backed bullets and give them a try.

Thanks for the info;

Mike

 

[rfwobbly]

I tried the 1.040 and the 1.050 but the 1.045 patterns the best,

You are free to try different OALs, as long as they do not allow the bullet to be resting on something in the chamber. My understanding is that some Walthers have "short chambers" like the CZs I'm used to working with. So the max safe OAL has to be the first calculation.

If you are using 1.040" then I would hope that you can drop a test cartridge into your chamber with an OAL of ~1.055" and have the gun go into battery OK.

Just a passing thought for safety.

 

[LiveLife]

Oops. Hollow Point not Hollow Base.

 

[Walkalong]

I loaded them at 1.050 with good results.

I tried the 1.040 and the 1.050 but the 1.045 patterns the best,

I'll try that O.A.L. next time.

 

[engineermike]

I got good results at 1.050 but better at 1.045. Hard to believe that that small a change would make that much difference. The Berry's 124gr hollow point is about the same shape as the Hornady XTP but they only show a load C.O.L. at 1.100 in Hornady's load data. In the 9mm going from 1.100 to 1.045 is a lot when pressures are concerned and at 1.045 I am pushing close to the min. length of 1.000. Any way, just not wanting to put to much pressure on the o'l gun. Guess it has to do with bullet shape more than anything.

 

[Walkalong]

I first tried 1.030 with so so results. Feeding and accuracy were both better at 1.050.

 

[rfwobbly]

I got good results at 1.050 but better at 1.045. Hard to believe that that small a change would make that much difference.

I agree. BUT, you could get dramatically different results if the nose of the bullet was fouling the rifling. That's why I asked if you had actually chambered a round 1.055" long.

.....but they only show a load C.O.L. at 1.100 in Hornady's load data.

Then you can use any OAL between 1.100" and the longest the chamber will accept. Do you know the measurement of the longest OAL that bullet will allow in that barrel?

 

[engineermike]

I started this whole process at 1.130. then went to 1.125, then 1.120, then 1.110, then found some data at 1.075, then moved to 1.060, 1.055, then 1.050, then 1.045, and stopped at 1.040. I was using HP 38/Win 231 in units of 3.9, 4.0, and 4.1 grains of powder. I've been working on this load for a month now, and have settled at 1.045.

 

[rfwobbly]

Roger. I get that message loud and clear.

So you have tried a round made with this bullet at 1.060" and it chambered just fine? That's all I'm asking.

Over.

 

[engineermike]

No, 1.060 did not chamber well.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mike -
That's my fear. Take a look at this cartoon....


Some European 9's have the chambers optimized for RN. So when you fit other types of modern bullets we can get now in the US, you have to expect to use special OALs because the newer bullets can strike things inside the chamber.

When you fire a bullet that is already resting on a blockage inside the chamber you get a pressure spike that can be more dangerous than using too much powder. It's like driving over a curb with a rolling start, versus nudging up to the curb and waiting for your wheels to touch the curb before attempting to climb it. Capishe?

That's what I think explains the accuracy different between 1.050 and 1.040 in your gun. It's a danger sign that you need to read and heed.

Does that make sense?

 

[engineermike]

So you tell me, do I need to go longer or shorter?

 

[rfwobbly]

EM -
Sorry, but I can't. Only you have the bullet and the barrel, which are the key ingredients.

• Sent you a link to a thread that will help you determine the maximum OAL you can use with that bullet in that barrel. It's a very simple process and should get you some accurate numbers in about 5 minutes. You can't go any longer than that.

• When you pick load info out of a book you are always free to use a longer OAL (lower the pressure), but you can't safely go any shorter than that.


Your OAL will need to fall somewhere between those 2 extremes.

Hope this helps!

 

[engineermike]

That's ok, I just this method. It's a little simpler...


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4279/45seatingpossibilitiesxn.jpg

 

[Walkalong]

Like this.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

 

[engineermike]

This reloading is to complicated for me, I'll try something else.

 

[john16443]

This reloading is to complicated for me, I'll try something else.

Don't give up man! Not complicated, but it does require an understanding of what is happening and why it is happening. You've had success with your load, stick with it!

 

[hAkron]

I'm seating those ~ 1.045" - 1.040" for my CZ 75 D PCR. Anything longer doesn't want to chamber correctly (had to field strip it twice and use the guide rod to push the stuck unfired bullet out of the chamber). Drop test in my Glock allow for a much longer OAL