Berry's .38 Special 158 Grain Keyhole Issues

[Reloader7786]

I'm trying to work up a load for .38 special 158 Grain Berry's (Plated) FN bullets using HP-38 powder. I'm using Lee dies to include the Lee factory crimp die.

Using 3.2 Grains (min load) was clearly under-powered and keyholed just about every shot.

Using 3.4 was still throwing a large number of keyholes but seemed to shoot fairly accurately otherwise.

Using 3.7 (max for lead bullet) recoil and accuracy is what I'd expect however 7/40 rounds still produce a keyhole.

At 3.7 grains it's within safe limits as Berry's says you can use the FMJ data which yields a max of 4.3.

I'm using the FCD with about 1/3 of a turn of crimp which is slightly less then 1/2. I'd run a couple test batches with different crimps and found the following:
- no crimp, keyholed consistantly
- normal 1/2 turn crimp seemed to have more keyholes then 1/3
- 2/3 turn crimp wasn't accurate, and keyholed and just seemed to be a bad plan
- 1/3 seems to render the most accurate load.


The COAL that I'm using is 1.476"

Synopsis:
Berry's 158Gr .38 Spcial RN Plated Bullets
3.7 Grains Hp-38
CCI Primers
1.476 COAL
There aren't any signs of pressure at this load and recoil is less then most factory loads.

Shooting out of a 2" Ruger SP101, though I've also done the same workup with a 4" Taurus with the same results so it doesn't appear to be related to the gun / leading etc....

Seeking advice on how to rid myself of the keyholes. If it's not obvious I'm new to reloading so go easy on me

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[rcmodel]

Put your target on a hard backer of some kind.
Even a cardboard box, if you don't have anything else.

Free hanging paper targets try to get out of the way of the bullet, and you end up with what appears to be keyholes, but actually isn't.

If you are getting good accuracy, it can't be keyholing.

But, all of your loads are very light.

Up the charge to 4.0 and see how that goes.

rc

 

[Reloader7786]

We are using cardboard backers, issue is only occurring with these loads. Shooting at a short indoor range we are able to keep it within similer accuracy as factory loads. Target is at about 22 feet.



My thought was the same as yours though

I'll give it a whirl at 4.0 and see if that solves it.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Hodgdon recommends a load of 4.3 grains of HP-38/Win. 231 with a 158 gr. jacketed bullet. I use jacketed data for most of my loading with Berry's bullets and have no problems until I happen to push a regular plated bullet over 1,350 fps, which will make it tumble.

For +P loading, you can go another .3 grains of either powder and still be below the velocity threshold for regular plated bullets.

Breaking the thin plating with a hard crimp can also cause tumbling of the bullet, but it doesn't sound like that's your problem. Since plated bullets are pretty soft, sometimes you need enough pressure for them to obturate in the bore if the diameter of either the barrel or the bullet doesn't match the other.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Reloader7786]

That's very helpful, being new started low and it sounds like I just didn't work it quite enough upward.

I'll make up 10 rounds of each (3.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3) with the 1/3 turn crimp (quite light) and see where they wind me up at.

 

[Reloader7786]

After some testing with a chronograph, I ended up with 4.3 grains being the first charge that yeilded sufficiently reliable and accurate rounds.

 

[Mauser69]

Stop using that FCD. Not only do you not need it for any revolver, but it is most probably deforming those soft bullets, Even when you do not "crimp" the case, that die has a carbide ring that resizes the entire loaded round, and that usually makes lead (and plated) bullets undersized.

Even if you want to heavily crimp .357 loads, the standard seating/crimp die is the proper choice for revolvers. It will produce all the roll crimp you could ever want, or no crimp at all for fart loads.

 

[anothernewb]

yep. dump the FCD. I had similar issues with plated bullets and the lee dies.

you need a taper crimp die.

and it just so happens, I'm selling one, lol.

 

[Sunray]

Keyholing is caused by undersized bullets, oversized barrel and sometimes too low velocity.
4.3 grains of HP-38 is the MAX load for a jacketed 158 at 779 fps out of a 1:18.75", 7.7" barrel(seems kind of an odd test barrel length for a .38 to me) according to Hodgdon's site. I'm thinking your velocity is too low. Assuming whoever updates Hodgdon's site got it correct.
A crimp, of any flavour, isn't really necessary for .38 loads.

 

[Reefinmike]

Lose the cartridge sizing die aka fcd. Keyholes come from undersized bullets. Your "factory crimp die" sizes the outside of the case to a consistent size. The thicker the brass, the more it squeezes down your bullet. If you are using mixed brass, some rounds may very well provide no resistance when sent up in the die- those are fine. If you are feeling resistance, you are damaging your bullets.

I wouldnt even roll crimp any, just remove any belling you applied to the case mouth. Those bullets dont have a real cannelure so any form of a crimp is again damaging the bullet.

 

[ants]

In my experience, the FCD performs an excellent 357 Mag crimp if adjusted correctly on a properly sized case.

Some folks just hate the FCD categorically, and tell you to dump it every time. In my experience I disagree, using it only as a crimp die. It doesn't 'post size' my ammunition because my ammo is dimensionally correct before it gets to the crimp stage.

If your cartridges are out of spec after seating and the FCD needs to iron them out, you likely have a problem that even the FCD can't solve. Find the source of the problem and correct it. Once the cartridges are dimensionally correct, the FCD only crimps. And it does a fine job when adjusted correctly.


But if you don't want the FCD, the Redding Profile Crimp Die is the best I've ever used personally. I would recommend it for any revolver round. Far better than Lee, RCBS and Lyman. But any of those three work if adjusted correctly and used properly.

 

[anothernewb]

ants.
I agree with you save one caveat. The lee FCD's are dimensionally accurate, true. But there are times where a cartridge is dimensionally outside the parameters of the FCD, legitimately so. Case in point. There have been several examples of a FCD which is actually undersized, but I will concede the point that that is the exception.

But, in it's purpose, the FCD is designed for factory ammo. Factory Jacketed ammo. cast lead is almost always larger than jacketed, and in going through the frustrations with leading using a 45acp FCD, it was found that brass thickness played a part. cast bullets and thicker brass run through a FCD can, and does result in a swaged bullet which is then undersized for the chamber and throats, causing many shooting issues.

This phenomenon has been well documented and reproduced. Indeed Lee even admits that it may not be ideal for lead, and will recut the carbide in a FCD for you if you contact them.

 

[rcmodel]

Sunray said:

A crimp, of any flavour, isn't really necessary for .38 loads.

That is not correct advice to be giving out on a reloading forum.

A Roll-crimp is absolutely necessary in .38 Special in +P with slower powders, or in light Air-weight guns with any bullet weight at standard or +P velocity.

Don't be telling new reloaders stuff like that!!

rc

 

[AzShooter1]

I had a bad experience with Berry Bullets. Had the same problem of keyhole hits so I decided to mike the bullets. Out of 700 I had left a majority were .355. Some .356 and about 200 .357. Weights were off by over 5 grains from bullet to bullet.

I called Berry's and told them of the problem to see if they would have me send the bad bullets back for exchange. Anyone can make a mistake packaging.

I was told I didn't know what I was doing and they wouldn't help. I then found a number of other makers. No more Keyholes in the paper.

 

[rcmodel]

This from 8 years ago.

I think they have improved the quality considerably since then.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331269&highlight=Berry+bullets

rc

 

[ReloaderFred]

All Berry's plated bullets are now post sized after plating. They weren't happy with the product either, so they fixed it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[340PD]

I shoot a lot of Berry's bullets in 9mm,38, and .45 caliber. I use a light taper crimp and have never had any issues. I have found them to be very accurate in all my calibers when kept below 1000fps. Cleanup has been a breeze.

 

[vaalpens]

A Roll-crimp is absolutely necessary in .38 Special in +P with slower powders, or in light Air-weight guns with any bullet weight at standard or +P velocity.

RC, thanks for the above comment.

I have been reading up on all the 38/357 threads lately since I will soon expand my handloading to include 38special and 357mag. Adding 38/357 to my stable means that I need to learn apply a roll crimp, and also know when it will be necessary.

I don't want to hijack the thread regarding Berry's bullets, but can you point to some guidelines on how you decide when a roll crimp is needed instead of a taper crimp for 38special loads?

 

[anothernewb]

vaalpens,
in my (albeit limited) experience, berrys (plated) bullets have always performed best with a taper crimp. jacketed bullets and lead can be roll crimped. Many bullet profiles also have a crimp groove in them, but the berrys I used did not. Many people roll crimp berrys and other plated ones as well and have no issues, however.

In short, when I used them, I always taper crimped berrys loads, and roll crimped any bullets with a crimp grove, or heavy 357 loads.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't even have a taper-crimp die for .38/.357.

I roll crimp everything.
Heavy on magnum loads, and lighter on .38.

Taper crimp might work better on 148 HBWC target loads, but I just adjust the roll-crimp die to remove the case mouth bell and call it good.

rc

 

[Gadawg88]

I roll crimp everything.
Heavy on magnum loads, and lighter on .38.

Same here. With 38sp and plated bullets I use just a hint of a roll crimp.

 

[au_prospector]

but I just adjust the roll-crimp die to remove the case mouth bell and call it good.

That is all I do as well for .38. Pull a couple bullets to see if you are deforming them with the crimp. Could be your issue along with light loads. Berry's plated should be good to go in any .38 spl load and probably up to mid .357 loads too velocity wise.