Best 22lr round for short barrels (stinger overrated?)

[spotch]

So after I bought my 22lr lcr to accompany and train with my 357lcr, I started thinking a lot about ammunition that works best in short barrel guns. After doing a lot of searching and reading, it seems like the old standbys (velocitor/stinger) actually do relatively poorly out of barrels less than 3~. Time and time again I see the Remington yellow jacket coming out on top in terms of muzzle energy. I suppose it's possible cci uses slower burning powder to achieve those high end numbers, making those rounds less than ideal if you're going for maximum power/lethality in a short barrel 22lr handgun (lol, talk about a contradiction ).

Anyway here's one of the tests I was thinking of:
http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275995

The gunblast review for the 22 Lcr seems to have come up with similar results.

Thoughts?

(btw please don't turn this into a debate over 22lr in a self defense capacity, the argument is as old as dirt and it's pointless... Think of this simply as a discussion about how to best sharpen your short barreled 22lr "pointy stick" )

 

[blindhari]

Oky Doky,
You did say short barrels. I have a deep buried BUG in 22lr. It is a NAA mini revolver. After firing a lot of CCI, Win, Rem etc. I picked up a box of big slow Alguila 60 gr rounds. As this is going to be used at arms length bad breath distance, if ever, I was thinking, forget velocity and consider transfer of energy. Here is what I found out;
1 It stinks, powder burning has a funny smell
2 It looks like a 22 short with too much lead
3 This is not something I would ever put in an autoloader
4 If I put this against, and I mean touching, a 1gallon water filled milk
jug it appears to outperform all of the high speed 22lr I tried.

It appears to me that utilising a slower velocity 60 gr bullet is more effective than a higher speed lighter 30??? grain bullet. Who would have thought maybe the .45 guys are right and I should change to heavier bullets from a .45 and get rid of the .357. Not very scientific I admit, but this is what I am using at this time, not a pointier stick, just a heavier one with some follow through.

blindhari

 

[rcmodel]

Aguila SSS 60 grain do tumble badly out of a 2" S&W in water jugs.

But they would tear quite a hole I think.



rc

 

[jmr40]

This is right. You are not going to get any real velocity from a 3" barrrel. Not even your 357. The only way to improve performance is with heavier bullets. Smaller, lighter bullets work just as well as slow heavy bullets, but you have to get the speed to make them work. Small bullets at slow speeds just don't work well. Actually a 357 is a poor choice for a short barreled gun. You would be surprised at how slow this gun is shooting if you ever shoot it over a chronograph. With 125 gr bullets you have a very loud 9mm. I'd suggest heavier bullets from both the 22 and 357 for the best performance and worry less about velocity. Since you only plan to use the 22 for cheap practice the velocity of the 22's shouldn't really be an issue.

Now, if you were to start shooting either of them from 6" or longer barrels, then you will start seeing speeds fast enough to make the lighter bullets effective.

 

[spotch]

Heres what I'm wondering though... If the bullet can't stabilize and it's heading toward a target wobbling, hits that target mid-wobble and has to go in diagonally or partly sideways, won't the penetration be severely negatively effected? I know tumbling inside the body tends to do a lot of damage, but I though that was only assuming the bullet had enough energy to penetrate as it tumbles. If I saw a 9mm round keyhole like the aguila 60gr I'd think "man that's going to be super destructive", but when I see a 22 tumble and keyhole I wonder if it can be counted to penetrate when it doesn't hit squarely (since all these rounds are going to be penetration-challenged out of a short barrel 22 to begin with).

?

 

[intercooler]

I can only share my results:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dHFqNFBYc2JxWEY1SEFWQ1V1VUdTSUE#gid=0

 

[rcmodel]

when I see a 22 tumble and keyhole I wonder if it can be counted to penetrate when it doesn't hit squarely

In the limited water jug testing I did with them?

They hit point on and stable, penetrate one wall of the jug with a .22 cal hole, and start tumbling inside, then go on into the second jug tumbling and stop against the back wall of the second jug.

The first jug splits on the back side and water goes spraying.
The second jug leaks on one side from a rectangle hole from the tumbling bullet with a bulge on the back from slug impact that didn't make it through the forth wall..

I am still a fan of CCI 40 grain Hi-Speed solid ammo in my S&W snubby.
But I wouldn't consider myself at a disadvantage loaded with 60 grain Aquila SSS either.

It looks like eight of them in the chest would make a BG change his plans rather quickly.
And concentrate more on getting to the ER alive then harming me.

rc

 

[PT92]

I'm not saying it's all 'moot' (the ballistic stats make for fascinating reading and subsequent discussion) as I love a mouse-gun collection (have a decent one myself) as much as the next guy. But seriously these things are made for three things IMO and in this order:

1) plain and simple fun shooting Americana style--It's just enjoyable!
2) BUG (no need for elaboration)
3) SD/PD/CCW (I can not see this unless it's financially all you have (and I don't think if this is indeed the case one should feel like they are defending themselves with what some would have you believe is just a 'glorified BB-Gun').

-Cheers

 

[spotch]

I'm not saying it's all 'moot' (the ballistic stats make for fascinating reading and subsequent discussion) as I love a mouse-gun collection (have a decent one myself) as much as the next guy. But seriously these things are made for three things IMO and in this order:

1) plain and simple fun shooting Americana style--It's just enjoyable!
2) BUG (no need for elaboration)
3) SD/PD/CCW (I can not see this unless it's financially all you have (and I don't think if this is indeed the case one should feel like they are defending themselves with what some would have you believe is just a 'glorified BB-Gun').

-Cheers

Indeed. The great thing about this topic is that in addition to being fun on a theoretical level, it could arguably be helpful for people who fall under #2 and #3 on the list (even a BUG needs good ammo ).

But yeah, i like it mostly for the "academic" aspect.

 

[rcmodel]

3) SD/PD/CCW (I can not see this unless it's financially all you have

I have lots of other guns.

But there is no need for a .357 Mag or .45 ACP when walking the dog at the farm, and the most dangerous thing I am likely to meet is a copperhead, rattlesnake, or irate Bluejay on the path.

For that?

A 10 ounce S&W 317 8-shot .22 with laser grips works much better, with less risk to my dog, then a .454 Casual or 9mm Glock.

rc

 

[PT92]

I have lots of other guns.

But there is no need for a .357 Mag or .45 ACP when walking the dog at the farm, and the most dangerous thing I am likely to meet is a copperhead, rattlesnake, or irate Bluejay on the path.

For that?

A 10 ounce S&W 317 8-shot .22 with laser grips works much better, with less risk to my dog, then a .454 Casual or 9mm Glock.

rc

rcmodel,

Indeed--I was just addressing that at large. I have actually seen people purchase (literally yesterday) mouse-guns for their wives because it has pink-pretty grips and fits perferctly in their purses. I understand the choice for practicality related to it's both small and really cheap to frequently shoot/practice with, but I would advise a .380 or even small 9 nowadays with the plethora compact/affordable models available...

-Cheers

 

[DBR]

There a couple of reasons heavy bullets work better out of short barrels. First, the cartridge generally contains less powder so it burns more completely. Second, heavier bullets spend more time in the barrel so the powder burns more completely.

 

[SaxonPig]

I tested a bunch of 22 LR ammo on the chronograph and was surprised to find the Stingers were among the worst performers. I recall the Remingtons had a slight edge in velocity over the other brands but let's be honest, an additional 25 FPS isn't all that meaningful... it's still a 22 LR.

 

[blindhari]

My NAA 22lr is a BUG. It is for use after the .38 J frame is empty. I intend to employ it with the muzzle TOUCHING the target. I have no concern with it beyond that distance. I do not care if it tumbles. I am not concerend if it can hit the barn at 5'. As I am getting older, it is my last resort as I am going down/if I am down. Muzzle velocity and tumbling have no valid concerns to me, energy transfer does. In addition there is the small but real value of explosive gas disruption to body tissue. It is only for use when there is no standoff left from an attaker. For these reasons I have chosen to load a 60gr slower bullet rather than a higher speed 30gr. It is not for shooting snakes, varmint or plinking of any sort. I do not practice with it at a target. I practice getting it out, bringing to battery, placing against target and pulling the trigger. I have found that the cylinder tends to cut the top of my thumb when this is done, no comp;aints, if I need it and use it as planned my thumb will have time to heal.

blindhari

 

[56hawk]

I have done quite a bit of close range varmint hunting with 22 handguns. Yellow Jackets are the only round I will use now. This is simply because in my experience they are vastly superior to anything else I have tried. Since people have brought up the Aguila SSS, I will say it was by far the least effective of all the ammo I have tried. They seem to just punch a tiny hole clear through without doing much damage. I have even had to do up to four head shots to kill a single animal with them.

 

[spotch]

There a couple of reasons heavy bullets work better out of short barrels. First, the cartridge generally contains less powder so it burns more completely. Second, heavier bullets spend more time in the barrel so the powder burns more completely.

See, in muzzle energy terms this seems to not be true... I have yet to see a 60gr or even a 40gr top the yellow jacket in muzzle energy out of a short barrel. And it's wild because I kinda bought the "heavier bullets move slower and leave more time for the burn". I think the reality may be that the type of powder (fast or slow) used has the biggest effect out of short barrels. It's the only explanation for why the stinger AND the heavier velocitors both don't develop much energy out of the short barreled guns.

 

[spotch]

I tested a bunch of 22 LR ammo on the chronograph and was surprised to find the Stingers were among the worst performers. I recall the Remingtons had a slight edge in velocity over the other brands but let's be honest, an additional 25 FPS isn't all that meaningful... it's still a 22 LR.

Indeed, it really is all academic since we're comparing double digit muzzle velocities when most people want AT LEAST 250+ ft/lbs with a much heavier bullet.

Although I will say you're probably doing yourself a favor going with a round that generates 80ft/lbs as opposed to 65-70, all else being equal.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I intend to employ it with the muzzle TOUCHING the target.

FYI: "Targets" usually don't play by your rules. When reality doesn't meet your intended expectations, then what? You have to adapt to a situation that you don't control.

I suggest the CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet) load.

 

[PT92]

Of course, the legendary Israeli Mossad/Sky Marshals used the 3.5'' barrel Beretta Model 70/71 and quite effectively at that:

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/

 

[MCgunner]

The best is the one that's 100 percent functional in the gun and the most accurate. That will take a lot of bench firing for groups to determine as every gun is different. None of 'em are man stoppers unless properly, surgically applied.

In my NAA mini, Federal is the most accurate. YMMV

 

[DNS]

As an NAA guy a 3" barrel sounds huge compared to 1" to 2".

Golden bullets quality is less than stellar. A lot are out of spec and won't chamber too. I guess i should state that I've not had any fail in my revolvers to be fair though.

My ammo of choice is Federal. Its slightly slower, granted. One failure in 28 years of shooting bulk though. Not bad reliability.

I've been wanting to test some of the 60 grain elongated bullet stuff but i can't seem to find it locally.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

.22 Aguila 60gr SSS does drill a clean hole through a 2x4 from a 2" J22 compared to other .22LR rounds from the same gun which penetrate all the way thorugh but I can't see daylight through the hole as I can with the 60gr SSS. I suspect the powder in the Aguila burns quickly.

Solid high velocity 40 gr .22 LR will also do a flip passing through gelatin or water and often stop base first.

On the .22 Stinger, I recall NRA tests that showed most .22 rounds gave max velocity in a 19" barrel but Stinger gained velocity all the way out to 26" the longest barrel used, so I agree that the Stinger powder is probably "rifle" powder as opposed to "pistol" powder for most .22s. Stinger though gives the most consistent reliable ignition I have found with a small .22 pistol.

 

[NG VI]

Since people have brought up the Aguila SSS, I will say it was by far the least effective of all the ammo I have tried. They seem to just punch a tiny hole clear through without doing much damage. I have even had to do up to four head shots to kill a single animal with them.

Not my experience at all. On a bad shot one of them from a CZ Kadet punched a good amount of a squirrel's guts out the exit wound.

I'd maximize the one variable that isn't going to change in a shorter barrel, given that you won't get enough velocity to make the projectile do anything more interesting than just punch a hole the size of the bullet. Might as well make it a larger, more destructive projectile.

And it worked fine through a CZ Kadet and a Taurus PT-22.

 

[56hawk]

Not my experience at all. On a bad shot one of them from a CZ Kadet punched a good amount of a squirrel's guts out the exit wound.

Have you compared that to what a Yellow Jacket will do? With head shots on rabbits Yellow Jackets will pop their eyes out of their sockets.

 

[NG VI]

From a rifle or pistol?

What part of a human body is volumetrically similar to a rabbit head, and contains some vital piece of bodily infrastructure?

What happens to objects with 4 fluid oz of volume when hit by two bullets with forty or so foot-pounds of energy difference and what happens to something with the volume of a human torso when hit by bullets with forty or so foot-pounds of difference is so different it's totally irrelevant.

A rabbit head may burst from a Yellowjacket.

A human chest will certainly not.

Whether the effects inside the human torso are more significant (I think) is going to depend more upon mechanical/structural injuries than on raw energy numbers when we're dealing with under a hundred foot-pounds. A longer 60 grain bullet that has enough momentum to go through much of a human body is probably going to deal more significant wounds than a 30-grain bullet that's nearly ball-shaped.