Best bolt combination

[ghost squire]

What bolt rifle, that is still available for purchase and is under 3000 dollars, has the best combination of reliability in adverse conditions (mud, sand, snow etc) and cycling speed? Accuracy must be minute of torso at 300 yards or better. I've heard that Tikkas and Sakos cycle quickly, I wonder if these would fare well in battlefield conditions? Does the Enfield meet my requirements?

One rifle that would not, in my opinion, is the Mosin Nagant. To set a benchmark I think that the Mosin Nagant action, at least in the one I had, was sticky and too slow.

 

[ArmedBear]

The Steyr Scout is a really nice rifle. Spendy, though.

An Enfield in good condition is a very good rifle, and far below $3000 now that the surplus stock is being sold. Nice action.

 

[Limeyfellow]

The perfect answer for your requirements is a Lee Enfield. Almost impossible to break, as in you can throw them off a cliff and bury them in sand, quickly swipe through the barrel and fire away. They are also capable of sustained, aimed fire of over 30 round a minute, start with a 10 round clip.

They also have the advantage of using the bolt rather quietly unlike some so its quite capable of removing an old round and chambering a new one without hardly a sound.

Headspace problems can be fixed with a $10 head to the bolt rather than having the whole thing redone.

Its also quite capable of taking down about anything. Just the other month one took down a Polar Bear that was attacking children in Canada.

So basically you have the finest bolt action battle rifle probrobly ever made for a cost of between $100-200 and would do everything you want it to do.

 

[ghost squire]

I'm sold! But what is the accuracy like on the average Enfield I'm likely to find at a Big 5 here in California?

 

[LAK]

I second the Lee Enfield. And for well under $1,000 you ought to be able to find a pristine or minty No.4 MKII.

These are generally not especially accurate rifles, but usually very adequate. Accuracy can vary, but if you are prepared to spend something "less than $1,000" you shouldn't have any trouble finding one that will shoot minute of torso or alot better.

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[Limeyfellow]

Well the British military use Lee Enfields as snipers (No1s, No4T 38s and 42s) from the first world war up until the mid 90s so they work well enough and still in use by the likes of Canadian Rangers.

Accuracy on a good Enfield tends to be in the 1-1.5 moa. Not so good ones in the 2 moa. Not too shabby.

It holds the record for aimed bolt action firing at 38 hits in an 12 inch target at 300 yards with iron sights (not counting misses) set by a Sgt Snoxall in 1914.

If you are lucky you might even find a No8 Enfield thats been redone in 7.62mm nato for cheaper ammo and there are plenty of Indian Ishapore Lee Enfields based on the No1 and made from scratch to hold 7.62mm nato.

 

[USSR]

What bolt rifle, that is still available for purchase and is under 3000 dollars, has the best combination of reliability in adverse conditions (mud, sand, snow etc) and cycling speed? Accuracy must be minute of torso at 300 yards or better. I've heard that Tikkas and Sakos cycle quickly, I wonder if these would fare well in battlefield conditions? Does the Enfield meet my requirements?

ghost squire,

I'm confused. First you state the rifle must cost under $3,000, then you give an accuracy requirement that d@mn near any rifle can meet, and then you ask about a milsurp rifle that can be purchased for under $200?

Don

 

[ghost squire]

Yes. But since I'm guessing those were rhetorical questions; I wanted to find out if there was anything that could cycle faster and was more accurate and reliable then the usual suspects in the milsurp circle, price being no object.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Straight bolt M91/30 for cycling speed, Yugo M-48 for minute of torso

 

[ghost squire]

As I said, I'm sorry but I just don't find that the Mosin Nagant has a fast enough action. Even Cosmoline I think said it needs to be slapped open and shut and that seems like too much effort... With steel cased ammo I had to kick the action open. I just bought some brass case a few minutes ago online though, maybe that can change. In addition I was inquiring as to the best combination.

Everybody, thank you all so much for helping me out

I'm starting a search for a nice Ishapore. Can a regular Mk. 4 be rebarreled to .308? .303 ammo is getting impossible to find.

 

[ghost squire]

Enfield Emergency, Help!

Allright, there is a sale right now that will end in several days at a Big 5 near me. Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1 for $120, limited supplies etc.

So I must know, is the surplus .303 ammo on Sportsmans Guide of acceptable quality, since its the only cheap stuff I can find, and eventually is it possible to convert the rifle to .308 if I ever decide to?

 

[MachIVshooter]

If I had $3,000 to spend and wanted a good, fast-handling, accurate and rugged bolt rifle, I'd go buy a Remington 700 XCR and a Leupold VX-III 4.5-14x 40mm and then go spend the other $1,700 on something else.

 

[ghost squire]

Anyone have experience with the optics that Kalinka sells? I'm going to get on of their picket reticle fixed zoom scopes and I'm wondering if they are any good, Cleanview, PO and PU specifically.

 

[nyresq]

if you can get one, the smoothest and fastest action I ever used was a steyr SSG. very short lift and smooth as silk action right from the box. a little higher on the price scale then military surplus though....

 

[ghost squire]

I believe the SSG uses a Mannlicher style action and magazine... So that explains that! LOL

 

[Diomed]

ghost squire -

Did you pick up that Enfield from Big 5? $120 is a fair price for an Enfield shooter. Just make sure the bolt serial matches the receiver! Checking for muzzle wear would be a good idea as well.

As far as ammo goes, I've heard from a half dozen or so people who have bought from Sportsman's Guide. Some report no problems, some have click-bangs or outright failures. It's mostly British-made, WWII and Korean era production, and it's mixed rifle and MG ammo (MG [Mk VIII or Mk 8] is safe, just slightly hotter and it uses a boattail which some rifles don't like). All corrosive. Cordite unless it's got a z after the mark. It's not the best for accuracy, it's more for plinking. If you want accuracy, get factory (S&B and Wolf/Prvi Partizan have good reps) or handload.

Rebarreling a No. 4 to .308 can be done, but it'll cost more than it's worth. If you want a Lee Enfield in .308, get a 2A1.

If cycling speed is your biggest concern, a No. 4 probably isn't your best bet. SMLEs (No. 1s) are faster and easier. They're a little more difficult to maintain, mainly in terms of headspace, and there's a little bit of bedding voodoo involved (the parts that are serialed are serialed for a reason), but they're the WWI version of the AK - fast, reliable, high capacity. And accurate.

I could go on, but no one's reading this anyway.

 

[ghost squire]

Hey I read it! And writing it down too. Hmmm... getting a No. 1 is tempting. Since the No. 4 is only 120 dollars though I think I might just get one while it's hot.

My question is, what difference is their in cycling speed, measured in approximate rounds per minute? I'm going to be checking one out today, but I've never handled a No. 1 for comparison.

I just want a rifle I can mount a cheap scope on to hit steel plates at 400 yards with... And that I don't have to take away from my cheek to cycle the bolt.

 

[Diomed]

My question is, what difference is their in cycling speed, measured in approximate rounds per minute? I'm going to be checking one out today, but I've never handled a No. 1 for comparison.

I'm not sure if a direct comparison has been made; probably, but I haven't seen it if it has. The British army musketry standard was (IIRC) fifteen aimed rounds a minute, and double that is attainable with practice.

Personally, I like the No. 1 for ease of cycling because of the bolt handle. The ball and stalk are larger and longer, respectively, than the No. 4/5 bolt. Fits my hand better and provides better leverage.

I just want a rifle I can mount a cheap scope on to hit steel plates at 400 yards with... And that I don't have to take away from my cheek to cycle the bolt.

Ouch. No offense, but I really hope that if you mount a scope you use a no-gunsmithing mount. There are excellent ones available, and the world has enough Enfields that have been drilled and tapped. You could also try a target rear sight - they're good to about 1000 yards.

Not breaking your cheek weld while cycling may take some work. I'm still working on it! (Admittedly I'm not the greatest shooter, which is why I practice.) A longer butt or a recoil pad may help with that, if you find your face a little too close to the action. It can be done, though. Definitely easier to do it than a Mauser action, since you don't have to put a lot of force into opening the action. By the time you need force, you have some forward momentum built up on closing the bolt.

 

[ghost squire]

Yeah I was planning on using the CAD Technik no gunsmith mount. Any suggestions on that? Ideally I would be able to use the iron sights simultaneously, which I believe is impossible with the CAD.

I find it impossible to maintain a semblance of a sight picture while cycling the bolt on my Mauser.

 

[beerslurpy]

Bolt guns wont have problems with reliability that a semi-auto might because you can always just use more elbow grease if the gun fails to cycle. Any modern bolt action in a full power cartridge should be minute of head at 300 yards. Minute of torso at 300 is AK level accuracy- a good AK but still well below what bolt guns are capable of.

My tikka is a sub MOA gun and I have never had problems with it. Of course, I have never abused it either. Price was under 500 bucks before the optics.

My main gripe with the tikka is lack of ammo capacity- not a problem when you are taking one or two shots and then scooting, but definitely a problem if you are defending a fixed position against barbarian hordes. If your gun holds 3+1 shots, you are going to have problems the second you encounter more than half a dozen looters. If they dont reveal themselves to be hostile until you are 25 yards away, the advantages of accuracy will be mooted and the disadvantages of capacity and cyclic rate will be accentuated.

 

[Diomed]

Nope, sorry. Scopes I know nothing about. I like my iron sights! Whether you can use the sights with the scope attached depends - are you going with an inline or a sidemount? (See, I really know nothing at all about the CAD!) If it's inline, you'll either have to load one at a time or swap out the magazine, since you can't use strippers. (Reloading by changing the magazine is not a particularly good idea. It's slower than using a charger, and there's a good chance you'll have rounds popping out and winding up rim-over. The rifle was designed for clip loading, the magazines shouldn't come out except for cleaning.)

Anyway, if it's mounted high enough, and it almost certainly would be, you can use the battle sight. If it's mounted forward enough, you can use the ladder sight. The original sniper rig was side mounted, so they didn't bother removing the regular sights. Which reminds me, you can get a repro cheek piece for a reasonable price if that helps with your cheek weld.

My main gripe with the tikka is lack of ammo capacity- not a problem when you are taking one or two shots and then scooting, but definitely a problem if you are defending a fixed position against barbarian hordes. If your gun holds 3+1 shots, you are going to have problems the second you encounter more than half a dozen looters. If they dont reveal themselves to be hostile until you are 25 yards away, the advantages of accuracy will be mooted and the disadvantages of capacity and cyclic rate will be accentuated.

Well, in a situation like that, hopefully you'd be using an autoloader. Right tools for the job, etc. Thing with the Lee is, you have fast cycling (for a bolt) and high capacity (for a bolt). The rifle did pretty darn well against semi-autos in WWII and Korea. So you wouldn't be completely screwed in a situation like that.

 

[ghost squire]

Which reminds me, you can get a repro cheek piece for a reasonable price if that helps with your cheek weld.

Fantastic, I'll be looking into that, and a side mount scope. I do love iron sights as well, don't get me wrong. I just want to try optics out as well. But I hate it when people say you can't shoot out to 300, 400, 500 and more yards with irons. Finnish snipers did it all the time, so did the Boers.

 

[Diomed]

But I hate it when people say you can't shoot out to 300, 400, 500 and more yards with irons. Finnish snipers did it all the time, so did the Boers.

So did the Brits. Service rifle competition target shooting was always with iron sights, so it can be done. The aftermarket sights help a lot, though. Variable aperture size, fine windage adjustment, really nice. The Aussies used iron target sighted rifles as snipers in the Pacific, when scoped rifles were unavailable.

I could be wrong, but I suspect only the Brits were optimistic enough to put 2800 yard sights on their rifles.

 

[ghost squire]

I could be wrong, but I suspect only the Brits were optimistic enough to put 2800 yard sights on their rifles.

Yup! My Mauser only goes to about 2000. VOLLEY FIRE, MEN!

The best I've heard of regular Brit infantrymen doing is mowing down incoming German troops starting at 1,000 yards, all of them being dead by the 600 yard mark. Thats dammmnnnn good, we don't teach them like that anymore. Especially considering that assuming a 30 fps standard deviance in their ammunition the best they could hope for was about 13 inches at 500 yards. A testament to magazine capacity and firing rate then, in addition to accuracy.

 

[mrmeval]

For good inexpensive .303 get the Wolf Gold. It's nice and the brass is very good.