Best Velocitys From the .45acp?

Status
Not open for further replies.
U

Ultima-Ratio

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2004
Messages
243
Location
anchorage alaska
Greetings, IF more is truely better (hey it's an American Thing!) what speeds should the 230gner run at?
I've seen some premium brands clock in at 1000fps as well as late 80s vintage SuperVels as well as many of the current brands poking along at barely 800fps.
Remember all the LEO love for the old .451 Detonics? [email protected] those flying ashtrays!
 
To get really good velocity out of the .45, you need to look at rounds such as the .45 Super and (for really hot stuff) the .460 Rowland. IIRC, the Super gives velocities in the 1100 fps range for 230gr. bullets, and the .460 Rowland pushes it to 1300 fps (both from 5" barrels).
 
Well, in a 1911 type gun I believe that the design value of 820 fps (give or take) is pretty good. I've got useful handloads that go as high as 950 fps and as low as 760 fps.


Now.... I have gotten a load to come out of a 5" 1911A1 at 1240 fps - the gun survived, my hand survived and the target was hit, but do I think it's a useful load? No.
 
Ah The Supers ETC-

Thanks Preacherman, been there done that back in the Dean Grennel days and of late with the Longshot 230s@1400. But there is a defining line what with the increased recoil eh?
Then again a short lil commander with a short compensator tames even Johnny Rolands (renamed .451 Detonics!) stout loads..
PS, not long ago I used Starline +P brass to load up some 200s@1200 with Power Pistol for an older retired LEO that just had to have some reborn .451 Detonics!
 
Ummmm SAMMMI

We've sorta encompassed several calibers here ya know?
The 460 Rowland is pretty much a twin the the .451 Detonics///both are loaded to higher pressures than the old .45acp.
With correct springs and proper brass it all works out in modern well built .45acps including Glocks!
 
C-I?

I doubt it tho they might list the current wildcats, off the top of my head here I think +P .45acp is about 22K cup and the Rowland & Super are in the mid 30s.
Keep in mind that the factory 9X23 runs at 52k!
 
Hey check out Double Tap's line of .45 ACP. I think he lists a 230 gr at 1000 fps and according to Mike McNett, these aren't even beyond SAAMI pressures so they aren't even technically +P.
 
MTMilitiaman said:
Hey check out Double Tap's line of .45 ACP. I think he lists a 230 gr at 1000 fps and according to Mike McNett, these aren't even beyond SAAMI pressures so they aren't even technically +P.
Click to expand...

+P does not mean over SAAMI spec. No commercial manufacturer will load over the max pressure.

Ultim-Ratio said:
The 460 Rowland is pretty much a twin the the .451 Detonics///both are loaded to higher pressures than the old .45acp.
With correct springs and proper brass it all works out in modern well built .45acps including Glocks!
Click to expand...

With all the G-21 KB's lately, that's not a gamble I'd want to take. But let me ask this; you seem to have been working with the .45 ACP quite a bit, so is this thread rhetorical or what? because you seem to be able to answer your own questions fairly well.
 
Faster is not better!!! Necessarily.

Let's not forget that higher/highest velocity in and of itself is NOT the most important objective of defense terminal ballistics. What's most important is matching the velocity of the bullet to the design parameters of the bullet.

Let's take the 230 gr. Gold Dot bullet for example. This bullet was designed to expand fully and penetrate an average human target a desired 12-14" or so with a velocity window of, perhaps, 800-900 fps. If you push that bullet to 1100 or 1200 fps, you may well cause overexpansion and underpenetration... depending, of course, on the physical nature of your target.

If you drop that velocity down to 700 fps, then expansion may not occur much, if at all, and penetration might also be insufficient as well. Ideally, we want to move our bullets at the speed they were designed to perform best at, given the likely make-up of the target.

The 200gr. .45 cal. Gold Dot pushed to 1100 fps will most likely prematurely overexpand (disintegrate?) and fail miserably in penetrating an elk's body, while it may perform effectively on a slightly-built 140 lb. human, wearing just a t-shirt. Same loading facing a 275 lb. heavily built, heavily clothed human adversary in winter time (lots of clothes) may result in total failure of the bullet to achieve it's desired objective. Disintegration with very shallow penetration. Slow the bullet down to 850-900 fps and it is more likely to hold together a bit better and penetrate more deeply.

In answer to the question... the best velocity for a given round is NOT "as fast as you can push it". It is that which the bullet was designed to perform well at, given the intended target.

Most .45 acp 230 gr. JHP bullets are designed to perform well against human adversaries at velocities of about 825-900 fps. You are best off adjusting your powder levels/barrel lengths to try to be within that velocity envelope for that particular bullet.

In winter time I prefer heavier bullets for caliber because they tend to penetrate best. I assume my adversary may well be very heavily clothed, very heavily built, and possibly very heavily under the influence of some substance. Penetration is king. You are likely to have to penetrate an arm orr two before even beginning to try to penetrate body clothing, layers of fat and or muscle, and then finally getting to vitals. Go for penetration and get expansion if you can do so without sacrificing penetration.

In the heat of summer, I anticipate that my penetration needs may be somewhat less and I might shift toward a bullet which would expand a little more readily and not have to stand up to lots of layers of clothing. Of course, there are many, many variables which must be considered in making your caliber, platform, and load choice.
 
Design Parameters?

DHart, contrary to internet gossip the Gold Dot isn't delicate. I have shot into test media (salmon and bear meat wearing double denim) and seen no example of bullet failure. S
Speaking of failure, if a bullet frags inside an animal and the animal still dies is that a bullet failure? Example a 180gn Nosler .300Win Mag head on into a six foot plus wolf and the bullet lodged (what was left) in the animals rear right leg! OBTW, the wolf died on impact, distance was just under 25yds. I say it wasn't a bullet failure, the result is a dead animal!
 
Hiya

MachIVshooter said:
+P does not mean over SAAMI spec. No commercial manufacturer will load over the max pressure.



With all the G-21 KB's lately, that's not a gamble I'd want to take. But let me ask this; you seem to have been working with the .45 ACP quite a bit, so is this thread rhetorical or what? because you seem to be able to answer your own questions fairly well.
Just looking for a concensus, probably got the wrong forum tho? Glock kabooms are primarily caused by weak brass being loaded to excessive pressures, I believe you'll find a good deal of info on .45 Super at Glock Talk, DT and Buffalo Bore sure ain't looking to blow up customers guns eh?
Click to expand...
 
Ultima... Guess you just missed the point, but that's ok. In answer to your question...("If more is truly better..."):

Your premise is wrong, more is not necessarily better when it comes to velocity of bullets. Higher/highest velocity is NOT a wise objective when it comes to bullet performance. Each bullet manufacturer designs each bullet to perform well with a specific type of target composition/objective, a certain range, from a certain type of firearm (barrel length), and within a specific velocity window. Launch a given bullet too fast or too slow and the results will not be optimal. That's my point. But it seems you have things pretty much all figured out for yourself, no need for further input from me.
 
Full expansion is great unless it happens too quickly/early and you experience the parachute effect - robbing you of the penetration you need.

Bullets designed for defense against humans expand quite readily at reasonable velocities because human skin is thin and bodies relatively shallow. Where a hunting bullet may have beginning utility in defense against humans is when you expect your threat to be wearing many layers of thick and heavy clothing, leather, etc. (deep winter conditions), might have to penetrate an upheld arm or two before your bullet even reaches the clothing on the torso, then thick layers of fat, muscle, etc. before reaching deep vitals.

Bullets designed for hunting are much more robust and won't expand nearly as readily - which is good, you want deep penetration through the thick hide, muscle, and deeper body of larger animals. Good expansion is great, but worthless if you don't get deep penetration.

No wonder why we have such an amazing array of calibers, barrel lengths, bullet types, bullet designs. It's great to have such finely tuned tools depending on your need at hand.

Generally, penetration is better at lower velocities (to a point) because the bullet expands more slowly, allowing it to penetrate deeper - all other factors being equal. It's quite possible to push a bullet so fast that it disintegrates nearly on impact, not giving you the penetration you need.

There are so many variables to consider if you want optimal performance from a bullet... carefully matching the bullet type and its intended use/velocity by the manufacturer to the task at hand will give you the best results.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top