Beyond SCSW (Victory question)

[waidmann]

Two facts are a given. The British Service Revovers K-200 commercial grade ran from in the 600K serial range upward. The Victory Model variant, U.S. marked, wartime finish etc. began somewhere short of the millionth/V-1 serial.

Wondering where the transition fell, serial wise? Anyone have general or specific knowledge on this? I realize this not your run-of-the-mill DOB question.

Thanks,
Waidmann

 

[rcmodel]

I'm not sure I understand your question, but:
See SCOSW 3rd. edition, page 142, about halfway down in the right column.

It says at the time the V prefix started, a small number were reportedly special finished in high gloss carbonia blue, select figured walnut stocks, etc..

Serial # 1000000 , & V1 through V5.
V1 went to Lt. Gen. Wm. Knudsen, and was later presented to President Truman.

It doesn't say where 1000000, V2, V3, V4, and V5 went.

There may be more detail in U. S. Handguns of World War II, The Secondary Pistols & Revolvers, by Pate.

However, a friend has the book and I can't look at it right now.

rc

 

[waidmann]

Thanks RC let me try again. At what serial number before V1 did they begin making military grade U.S. marked revolvers.

I have a United States Property, 5 inch .38 S&W, number 954XXX , a Lend-Lease type. When did they quit making the commercial quality K-200 and begin the Ordnance pattern (production standard).

Reading the SCSW they refer to .38 Specials as Victories.. The .38 S&W's are K-200's but were later concurrently numbered. (life was simpler when they were all Victories either U.S. or Brit.).

I am thinking of this gun as a "Pre-V" and curious as to how many fall into this niche.

Waidmann

 

[Jim K]

The answer is easier if you know why S&W went to the the V series in the first place. The fact was that their numbering machine only went to 6 digits, so when they approached 1 million (that had never happened before with an S&W revolver), they decided to use a letter prefix that could be put on all the frames before the serial was put on, but which would become part of the serial number. I heard they were going to use "A", but someone noted all the "V for Victory" posters and they decided to use V. There was no reason to change earlier than they had to, and most of the reasonably reliable documentation says they went from 999999 to V1 (no leading zeros).

Some writers say they went to 1000000, but given the original reason for the change in the first place, that would have been unlikely if not impossible.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

Well given as how apparently #1000000 was a specially finished presentation piece?

I bet they could have put 1000000 on it somehow if they decided they really wanted too.

rc

 

[waidmann]

Gentlemen,
I threw a wide net on this question and would like to solict your comments on an answer I received.

The first United States Property marked Lend-Lease revolver is 791,320 which was shipped to Australia (blued).

Thanks,
W.

 

[Old Fuff]

At the time it was Smith & Wesson's practice to make and serial number frames, and then later draw them out of inventory - in no particular order - to be assembled into complete revolvers. Therefore it is probable that during early 1942 they were at the same time assembling late commercial numbered guns (under 999,999) as well as V numbered ones at the same time. The available records we have today are shipping books as apparently production ones haven't survived. In other words, it can usually be determined when a gun was shipped, but not when it was made, and the two may not be the same.

.38-200 revolvers were originally bought and paid for by the British. When the Lend-Lease law was passed in March 1941 this changed, and Uncle Sam bought and paid for both those destine for U.S. forces as well as those being shipped to other countries (Britain, Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zeeland, etc.).

U. S. Military contracts were placed for .38-200 revolvers as early as October 1941, although S&W records show .32-200 revolvers with “United States Property” markings being shipped as early as July 1941. These pre-Victory revolvers would have been serial numbered in the original series that started in 1899. It should be remembered that some of them might have been assembled using commercial frames made and stockpiled during the late 1930’s, and can account for an unusually low number on rare occasions.

According to Smith & Wesson historian Roy Jinks, the first V-numbered revolver was made on (or delivered) on April 24, 1942; but this does not signify that the entire supply of earlier frames or undelivered revolvers was exhausted by that date.

If an individual revolver still has its original finish and stocks (stocks should be serial numbered to the gun on the backside of one or both panels), there are other ways to approximately date when it was made:

Commercial bright-blue: Used up to December 4, 1941
Dull “brush blue”: Used from December 1941 to April 10, 1942.
Parkerized finish: Used from April 1942 to the end of the war (1945).

Checkered commercial stocks with nickel-plated trademark medallion: Used until February 1942.
Plain uncheckered walnut stocks with no medallion: Used from November, 1941 (intermixed with commercial stocks) and then exclusively after February 1942.

These dates are for reference, and not cast in stone.

 

[Jim K]

Just to add to the info (or the confusion), one writer stated that the Victory Models were the military contract guns and anything without a V was not military. Obviously not true, but I am sure some folks accepted that. S&W was making revolvers for the British on contract at least as far back as mid 1940, after they had to agree to provide revolvers in order to pay the British for the money advanced on the Model 40 carbine.

That does not cover guns sold to the British and other countries that were simply purchased, not contracted for. Those sales were a continuing item and account for reports of "Victory Models" being sold as far back as 1936.

Jim

 

[waidmann]

More grist for the mill: 942974 was lettered as delivered to the Hartford Depot on March 19, 1942. It is a K-200, blue with medallion grips. It bears the familiar W.B., ordnance bomb, p and Canadian arrow C on the butt. It is not United States Property marked.

Were the inspection and proof applied at the factory or the depot? Or both? Would they not ordinarily indcate U.S. ownership?

I readily accept the idea that in the latter 600K into the 700K range would capture the myriad variables offered. It seems by March/April of 1942 the pattern was more than less set.

 

[Old Fuff]

Remember, they made frames, fitted a sideplate and yoke, stamped an assembly number on the frame, yoke, and usually the sideplate, then serial numbered the frame and put it into inventory. Sometime later the frames were taken out of inventory, assembled into complete revolvers and finished (blued, Parkerized, whatever). Most were stamped "United States Property" but apparently sometimes those that were "expected" to go to the Defense Supply Corp. (DSC) weren't, and they might or might not be military inspected. Inspection was done at the Smith & Wesson factory by government inspectors assigned there. Inspection and acceptence (or not) was done when the revolver was completed and ready for shipment, which might be some time after the serial number was stamped on the frame.

After October, 1941 - and perhaps as early as July, Lend Lease was in place. Smith & Wesson received contracts for .38-200 revolvers from the U.S. Army, and because of this they were usually "United States Property" stamped and inspected by government inspectors who left their mark. They belonged to Uncle Sam, but he forwarded them to England or Allies.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Fuff,

What you say is true of the way S&W (and other factories, including Springfield Armory) worked in the pre-war years when they stocked up on receivers/frames and then assembled guns as orders came in. But I am not sure that was the practice in wartime.

Bill Gunn, the late S&W president, and the man credited with pulling them out of a very deep hole, described in a magazine article how the old Roosevelt Avenue factory was being shaken to pieces by the forging presses during the wartime period. They were running full out and bricks were literally falling from the walls of the 1860-vintage building. I doubt they stored much of anything and they certainly did not have to wait for orders to assemble guns; their orders were to make all the guns they could "for the duration", and ship the guns as soon as they were made.

That is why I tend to believe that they just ran up to 999999, then stamped a V and rolled back to 1 without any break in production.

Jim

 

[waidmann]

What I am reading from you learned gentlemen is both helping me understand and articulate a more precise premise. That somewhere in the range between these two revolvers the paradigm shifted, a pivot point between the finely finished with commercial grips and the familiar wartime expedited model. That the grip style didn't shift in exact coincidence or that there were not exceptions I don't question. It would seem somewhere around 940-950K this occurred, or not.

Thanks for your valued opinions.

Waidmann

 

[Old Fuff]

What you say is true of the way S&W (and other factories, including Springfield Armory) worked in the pre-war years when they stocked up on receivers/frames and then assembled guns as orders came in. But I am not sure that was the practice in wartime.

During the Great Depression (1929 - 1941) Smith & Wesson went to great lengths to keep they're workforce, because they literally couldn't continue without them. Today it might seem impossible, but the truth is that they didn't have a complete set of blueprints for the basic K-frame Military & Police model.

Instead they depended on highly skilled and experienced machinists using gauges to check parts as they were made.

Consequently during the Depression years they kept workmen busy making thousands of parts they didn't need, and far in excess of current orders.

By 1941 they were by any measure bankrupt. But the war saved them, and put them into a position where they could produce far more revolvers then would have been possible otherwise within the time period 1940 - 45.

Throughout the war years they made revolvers using a combination of currently made parts along with the supply of pre-war ones. The pre-war parts of different kinds were not equal in number, so some ran out before others.

We entered World War Two after Pearl Harbor, about 3 weeks before the end of 1941 and going into January 1942. At the time Smith & Wesson was in full production making currently manufactured parts, including currently serial numbered frames, while they also assembled revolvers on previously made and serial numbered frames made years before, and they did this without keeping anything in any particular order.

Nobody gave a hoot. There was a war going on…