Big Bore Hunting Queston

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Newt

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Thanksgiving day I was out in the woods before daylight and got to a spot that was more like a scout/hunt. I've never hunted in there, so I wasn't expecting to see much. To make a long story short I saw a buck about 50 yds. through some brush. I was very confident with my shot. I found a large pile of hair, acorns and guts lying in the hair. I know I must have it a limb to deflect the bullet trajectory. I expected the deer to be laying no farther than 50 yards or so away. I would rather miss completely than wound one and never find it. Once this year I passed on a shot for that very reason. I would much rather have an overkill than an underkill. At least a wounded animal wouldn't get away.

I've never had any personal experience with a big bore gun like a 300 Win Mag or a 338 Win Mag, so I'll ask my questions here. Would I do better to have one of these guns for a "brush gun" than I would if I was shooting a .260 Rem? Could I expect better results?
 
Only a firm knowledge of anatomy, coupled with your ability to shoot accurately, and the presence of mind to take the correct shot, will guarantee you a clean kill. Blasting away with any rifle will continue to produce the results you just mentioned.
 
Even a 375 cannot be regarded as ''brushproof'' ..... we discussed brush factors on another thread recently. Deflection can be more than significant even with the heavier cals.

mannlicher is right . it is and always will be ... about shot placement. I pass by many shots because I know I cannot guarantee the exact required placement. You say the same newt but ... something here must have influenced the shot.

"I expected the deer to be laying no farther than 50 yards or so away."

You omitted to say whether and where you did find the deer??
 
ANY bullet can be deflected don't ever expect to find a 'brush busting' bullet. Use a scope and find an opening in the brush. That's the only effective way to hunt brush.
 
I take shots I believe I can make a clean kill on. As I mentioned earlier, I passed on a shot earlier this year on a much bigger buck than I shot Thanksgiving morning. My judgement or shooting ability is not what is questioned here. I asked a simple question and got flamed for asking it. If you don't have any knowledge of the solution to the question, you don't have to reply. I don't want to start a flame war here but it was a simple question. I shoot year round and having grown up hunting I do know where to shoot. I never said I was going to go "blasting away" with any gun no matter how big. My comment about passing on the early season buck should have told you that. If you've spent any time in the woods hunting you will know that just about anything can/will happen. Sorry for asking the question. I thought I was coming to the right place to get some information from people who know more about them than I do.

Newt

P.S. - P95, I never found the buck. I've been back looking for him 5 different times. Still haven't found him. Like I said before, I'd rather miss completely than wound one and let him get away. This is exactly my reason for posting the question. I posted in hopes of finding something that could minimize deflection or better my chances in some brush. I never said guaranteed brush buster. Just something to better my chances.
 
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P95, I never found the buck. I've been back looking for him 5 different times. Still haven't found him.
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That is strange considering the initial ''evidence'' ... and if some critter had got to him for lunch, chances are you may have found remains. I am sure you looked and hard too ... bad luck indeed.

Hopefully no one was really trying to flame ... more perhaps a poor choice of phraseology.:)
 
IMO the posts above seem like sound advise, not flaming. That said, I believe all deer hunters, at some point in their lives, will lose a wounded animal. What is important, is how much effort is put toward the recovery of that animal. If you have done all you could do to recover that animal, then, that's all you can do. (It seems like you put quite a bit of time and effort towards finding the deer)
There are no "guaranteed" brush busting guns/bullets. Learn from this, and move on.
 
I have read several "brush" tests, and have a little personal experience. Definite consensus is that you have to have a projectile somewhere in excess of one ounce before you have any noticeable change in brush deflection. A LOT more than one ounce before it becomes somewhat dependable.
 
I hunt with a 45-70 ,it may deflect less than some others but I am well aware that it can deflect, therefore my previous comment.
 
My son bagged a small doe Monday .. with his 7mm mag .... and although the animal had started moving (within brush) - he gave a small lead for the kill zone, trying to pick his moment for a ''hole'' in the brush ... his shot still impacted a hind quarter. Range ..... mmmm, forget what he said exactly but probably about 100 yds.

The deer was I think moving away some .. and probably quartering to its rear but still ... does seem that some brush deflection was to blame. Most likely.

I think I'd want something like a 500 grain .577 cal minnie outa my M/L before the brush prob is gonna become nearer insignificant.
 
Everything I've ever read about brush-deflection concluded the important factor is the distance from the limb to the targeted animal. Close, yeah, maybe; anything much over ten feet, forget it. Doesn't matter if it's a .22 rimfire or a .45-70.

Art
 
In my class we did an experiment to seel what it took to get a .22lr to keyhole. Set up two potatochips about 2 inches apart. By the time the bullet went into the second chip it was already keyholing.
 
There is no substitute for a clear shot. "Brush Guns" are a myth. Even when I'm hunting with my 45-70 and my "SUPERCHARGED TYRANNOSAUR KILLER" loads, I pick my shots just the same as I would if I hunted with a .243. It's tough to watch a nice buck just out of reach or frolicking just on the other side of that *@#%* bush, but that's what a responsible hunter does.;)
 
Thanks Folks.

Thanks for the help guys. I didn't know I was this prone to a bullet deflection. I always thought, the heavier the bullet, the straighter the flight path, and that deflection was only something that happened in .22's. I will definitely choose my shots even more carefully than what I already was in the future.
 
Although not 'thee answer', a 12-gauge does very well with brush. I've personally had great findings with Federal's 3" Barns Expander 1oz sabots... took 2 Michigan whitetails this year alone through brush.
 
Crime Scene Reconsruction

It was taught by Tom Bevel. pretty much the number two expert in the country behind Dr. Henry Lee
 
Michigun,

Here in Arkansas where I hunt, I don't usually get a shot much over 100yds, so I was thinking shotgun too. I have a 12 Ga. Remington 870 Express Magnum that I ususally use for turkey hunting. If I were to buy a slug barrel for it, what kind of range could I expect to get with a saboted slug? Could I still keep my 100 yard range? Any input on that?
 
Ross Seyfried wrote up some testing he did a while ago. He used guns up to 470 NE.

His comments were that rifled roundball seemed to be best. Not good mind you, just better than the rest. From what I recall the roundball couldn't keyhole so even though it would be deflected its shape didn't throw it off course as much as bullets.
 
Newt, I have a Beretta 390 12-gauge with an aftermarket Hastings barrel for my slug-gun setup… the barrel is fully rifled & has a cantilever mount. I have a 3x9x40mm Leupold mounted to her. With this setup I can touch’em at 100 yards while shooting from a bench! I’ve taken Michigan whitetails with my Beretta from 10 yards all the way up to 164 yards.

These aren’t your regular shotguns anymore with these sabots & rifled barrels!

I USED to think my gun was abnormal with regards too it’s accuracy… not so; I’ve personally setup several slug-guns sense that would do the same as mine. I’ve setup Remington 11-87/1100/870’s, Mossberg 500’s, etc., etc, all capable of touching patterns at the 100-yard mark.

As with anything, you just have to match the sabot to the barrel/gun. My gun LOVES Federal 1oz Barns Expander 3†sabots… most find that 2-3/4†sabots pattern the best however, so I guess in that regard my gun is a little abnormal.

I personally wouldn’t hesitate to take a shot with my slug-gun at 200 yards, assuming the conditions are right, of course.

I will say that I do believe a cantilever mount on a slug barrel is a must... especially if you’ll be swapping barrels on your shotgun like I do with mine.
 

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Michigun,

Do you know if the Remington canilever rifled barrels are as accurate as the Hastings?

Steve
 
SteveW13, I have defiantly seen Remington factory barrels (fully rifled, cantilever mount/scope) that were just as accurate as my Hastings… that is, of course, once the ammo was matched to the gun/barrel. However, if I was going to purchase one or the other for a Remington, I’d more then likely choose the Hastings. My reasoning is because they make them for the Remington, others/I have had GREAT luck with them & for the fact that they’re in the custom barrel business in particular… it’s what they do. If I had the Remington factory barrel already, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it though.




Neither here nor there, but I’d like to add that I have a theory (backed up by some 1st hand) on why accurate slug-guns aren’t the norm… even though they should be with current gun/ammo designs…

(I believe shotgun accuracy starts with a 12-guage, (More out there for the 12-gauge) fully rifled cantilever barrel, sabots & a good scope with the correct magnification for both the longer & shorter yardages… I like 3x9 myself as 3 power works great for up close & 9 power does great with the longer (I like to pick a spot on my targets & not just go for COM.) shots…)

It can be broken down into 3 parts: (no particular order)

#1 = A lot of people doubt accurate shotguns & settle for just about anything because of this… they think it’s what ya get & that’s it.
#2 = Cost of sabot ammunition… can be up to $3 ($2 per seems to be about average.) per round… makes testing & practicing (correctly) with sabots costly!
#3 = The recoil issue… a .338 Ultra Rem Mag doesn’t have much when compared to even a 2-3/4†12-gauge sabot… makes it hard to be accurate when you’re getting beat up at the bench.
 
"Brush busting" is a dangerous myth. When I do load up a round that I call a "brush load," it's just a heaviear bullet loading that would drop too fast to use in open country.

If anyone insists their load will bull through brush accurately, I suggest they perform an experiment. Put up a deer silhouette target at 100 yards, and put up a brush screen at 95 yards, made of small twigs and straw. It should be dense enough to guarentee a hit, but thin enough to see the target through. Then fire a five-shot group. It's enlightening. One or two shots will certainly hit the kill zone, to be sure. Other shots will miss the silhouette completely. But some shots will hit the target in really unfortunate places, like the gut, or the jaw, or a hind lower leg. :(

Please *don't* attempt "brush busting"-- you owe the game you're hunting your best shot.
 
I had the oportunity to see just how bad brush is a on a bullet last spring in South Africa.

Twice I had bullets deflected in the brush and I'm not talking about sticks or branches just grass.

The first one was on an Nyala perfect broadside shot at less than 100 yards from a rest. Shooting a .375H&H and 270gr X bullets. I held for the shoulder at the shot the bull went down hard. As We walked up to it he got up and took off. I killed him on the run.

The post op showed that my first bullet had hit him just behind the head through the top of the neck stunning him just nicking the spine. I thought that to be a little strange.

Latter that day I shot an impala ram at 35 yards once again aiming for the shoulder. At the shot same thing he went down hard. When I got up to him I was surprised to find that his neck was broken. And that the 270gr .375 bullet had entered comletely sideways. That was deflected by a thin screen of dry grass.

This summer I shot at a hog at 130 yards from a solid rest only to see my bullet hit about 5 feet to the right of the whole animal. Latter I retraced my shot and found a small mequite branch cut in half by my bullet. The good news is that i killed that hog on the second shot at about 250 yards running off hand..:D Unluckiest Hog in texas.

So as others have said it doesn't matter what your shooting brush of any kind will deflect it.
 
This brush deal has been more than interesting. It has made me think a bit harder and .... tell me .... do you think I am right here with the following hypothesis .........

Taking into account the energy in the bullet .. let's just use easy figures and say it has 2,000 ft lbs at time of ''brush strike'' ..... now let's think of inertial effects.

The ubiquitous twig or even blade/blades of grass, has mass of course .. albeit small but and here's the deal .... at the instant of impact between bullet and small obstruction, that obstacle has to have its own inertia overcome before it either breaks or deflects.

So - for a minute fraction of time .... it is immovable ... and then gives way ..... with the immense forces present in the bullet with its momentum and kinetic energy .... it figures that said bullet MUST change direction by some amount .... (unless by pure chance, the collision between it and the obstacle is 100% normal to axis of flight ... in which case maybe there is just a small and hardly measurable reduction in velocity).

Looking at this in vector terms ...... even one second of minute of arc deflection is quickly going to become magnified thru the remaining travel .. which might be let's say another 50 yds.

Thus, the potential for considerable observed errors re POI.

Not very clearly laid out but ... see my thinking?
 
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