Bill Ruger on plastics...in 1984

[#shooter]

When he said "sporting arms" and "tradition", I think he meant wood vs plastic for hunting rifle stocks. But then he makes the barrel comment, so who knows.

Call me old fashioned but I will take a checkered wood stock over polymer any day. I just can't afford a $1000 stock. Each has it's place.

 

[ArmedBear]

National Match AR15s have plastic stocks and handguards

He wasn't talking about stocks. He was talking about steel, meaning components that are stressed and hot, like receivers, barrels, etc.

There are aftermarket composite barrels for 10/22's, of course.

I'm not sure I'd call the Kel-Tec a "sporting" firearm in the common meaning of the word (hunting and hunting-related target shooting, especially clay shooting). But if you do, that's still an exception that proves the rule.

What he was saying was that the functional parts of guns like these:

...would probably look a lot like they did in 1984, but with improved metallurgy and manufacturing techniques.

I think that, by and large, he was right.

 

[P97]

I'm glad I don't rely on what I read on Bulletin boards to make my decisions buying guns. If I did I would'nt have the quality of firearms that I now own. Funny we talk about what Bill Ruger said and overlook how prejudice we are on our comments ourselves. Has it been proven that Polymer handled guns won't last 50-100 years? How are we going to know without the test of time?

 

[ProguninTN]

Bill Ruger

I don't entirely agree with his comments, but he is dead, I know where to obtain pre-ban magazines, and his firearms have always worked for me.

 

[gezzer]

Just checked 3 suppliers and there are no Non-Law enforcement mini-14 magazines available. Still can't buy Hi-Cap mags from them. Nothing more to say.

 

[JohnBT]

You can't buy a concealed carry pistol from Marlin, Remington or Savage. Are you going to boycott them too for denying you your right to own one?

John

 

[#shooter]

I havn't seen a composite barrel, so they must not exist.

Does anyone here use composite barrels? If so what do they think of them.

 

[asknight]

gezzer, just because your favorite three suppliers don't have them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Try 44mag.com for starters... along with picking up a current edition of Shotgun News for about 10+ other sources.

'Nuff said.

 

[Cosmoline]

We're giving ruger the business about this because it continues to be their policy, regardless of ol' Bill's health.

http://ruger.com/webapp/wcs/stores/s...=13653&faNav=y

Show me a 20-round magazine for a Mini-14/30 on that page, and I'll take every word back.

http://ruger.com/webapp/wcs/stores/...Id=-1&parent_category_rn=11955&lastCatId=null

Well here's a HIGH CAP PISTOL MAG--a bunch of them in fact. So how the devil can it be "company policy" not to sell high caps to civilians if they are in fact selling high caps to civilians??

 

[ArmedBear]

I havn't seen a composite barrel, so they must not exist.

Well, it is sort of a misnomer, I think. The barrel itself is stainless steel, AFAIK, but it's really skinny. It's surrounded by glass-filled plastic through its length, and stainless on each end. I think the plastic serves as a stabilizer, mostly.

You don't NEED a thick barrel for .22LR, but thin barrels whip around. So, you surround it with hi-tech plastic, and you get a light barrel that doesn't warp with heat.

Cabela's has one for $135: http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...cts&QueryText=10/22&Ntx=matchall&N=4887&Nty=1

The Volquasrtsen tension barrel (similar design, but with more available options) is $210 and up: http://www.rimfiresports.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RSC&Product_Code=VC10THM

Let me know how you like yours.

 

[Robert J McElwain]

I've seen benchrest competition rifles with composite barrels, but I've never fired one. The custom builder I was talking to said they're gaining in popularity, but they're expensive.

Bob

 

[ArmedBear]

Well here's a HIGH CAP PISTOL MAG--a bunch of them in fact. So how the devil can it be "company policy" not to sell high caps to civilians if they are in fact selling high caps to civilians??

That's why I think that, whatever their actual policy, Ruger is probably just treading lightly. Just like us, they wonder when the next AWB might rear its ugly head. You know and I know that the Democrats will introduce such legislation whenever and wherever they can, and as soon as they have a bare majority in the House and/or Senate, or in any given state.

So, I think Ruger just wants to be able to show that they're not building those Evil Black Rifles.

Self-serving? Maybe. But I wouldn't be able to own a reliable .223 autoloader with a detachable magazine here in CA, if they'd not been able to keep the Mini off the banned list. If aftermarket mags are the price I pay, SO BE IT!

(Okay, the Kel-Tec SU-16 has since been introduced, then improved to the point that I'd buy one, since I got the Mini-14. But if the Mini were banned here, I assure you so would the SU-16. The Saiga is now, despite it being functionally and ergonomically no different from a Mini-30.)

 

[miko]

Hmm... One can argue that "sporting arms" (vs. self-defence, etc.) are still largely made of steel, except for cheap versions.

Then again, one can argue that "every serious shooter’s person" still prefers steel guns while only plebes go for plastics...

miko

 

[mike101]

Hey Orangelo

What do you mean "second rate junk". Have you ever owned a Ruger? I think not. I have, and they are damn near indestructable. My Security Six and Old Army will be banging away long after my buddies' Pythons have been reduced to a cigar-box full of parts, gathering dust in someone's attic.

As far as anyone not buying a Ruger because of something unimportant that Bill said 22 years ago, that is just silly. Some people on this forum are way too full of themselves.

 

[nemoaz]

I'd rather not buy Rugers because of some very important things Ruger did in support of the Clinton Gun Ban. And since most of Ruger's products are **** (ie Mini), I have no reason to overlook their behavior. I'd be more than glad to see them fold up completely.

 

[rust collector]

Come to think of it, all manufacturers stink

Colt sold out to Connecticut and has been hinky with the AR-15s it sells, Winchester is naught but a name these days, virtually all the mfrs have gone through bankruptcy, Remington built rifles for Russia and now markets Baikal and Czech built firearms, S&W made its deal with the Clinton folks, most Brownings are built in Japan or Europe, and I'm sure there must be some Trotskyites in Marlin's upper management...

You buy the tool, not the company, not a way of life (unless, of course, it's a Harley-Davidson). If the tool gives you satisfaction, you have done well and the producer has done well. Those who bewail corporate policy better not have any items in their home produced in China!

 

[MechAg94]

As far as anyone not buying a Ruger because of something unimportant that Bill said 22 years ago, that is just silly. Some people on this forum are way too full of themselves.

I have to agree. Gun owners need to be careful about holding grudges. Does anyone still hold a grudge against S&W? If not, why? Ruger has new owners as well. Maybe Ruger should start selling AR-15's.

I own a Ruger 40 cal pistol. My relatives own mini's, 10/22, and Ruger 9mm pistols. They all work very reliably, accurately, and with little cleaning.


Question: Did Bill Ruger do anything directly to help the Clinton Gun Ban? Or did he just say something that gave someone an idea that later ended up in some legislation?
Also, didn't Bill Ruger mention 15 rounds not 10?

 

[MechAg94]

Sounds like we need a version of the Ammo Oracle web page set up for Bill Ruger. There is so much BS and half edited quotes floating around that it would be nice if someone had the actual quotes and information about what Ruger did in the 80's and 90's.

 

[4v50 Gary]

JohnBT beat me to it. The HK VP70 was around for a long time but never really caught on. Now, as to the other futuristic plastic type firearm, there's the Remington Nylon-66 and the AR-7. Didn't Bond use it once as a sniper weapon? Plastics were around when Bill Ruger made his statement, but they hadn't swept the market yet and it would take a non-gun maker from Austria to make them popular.

 

[TimboKhan]

Real men don't need more than 10 shots, because real men never need more than one to begin with!

I am a diehard fan of Ruger, and I fight with Rockstar.esq enough to know that if you don't like Ruger, your never gonna like Ruger. However, there is one thing I would like to address...

And since most of Ruger's products are **** (ie Mini), I have no reason to overlook their behavior. I'd be more than glad to see them fold up completely.

First, thats your opinion that they are bad guns, that isn't any sort of objective fact. Second, why would you want them to close? That would be HORRIBLE for American gun owners, not to mention that it would also likely result in companies like Caspian shutting down, and not to mention the fact that there are god knows how many cottage industries set up to service and modify Ruger products. Because of the existing product, they would go for a while, but eventually they would start shutting down too. Horrible suggestion.

 

[bakert]

I think Bill Ruger saw the gun and high capacity magazines ban coming and did what he could to save his little Mini 14. Whether you love or hate him, at the same time he provided one helluva lot of firearms to people at an affordable price. Anyone that calls Ruger firearms "second rate junk" is misinformed or just talking BS. I carry one of those pieces of "second rate junk" on a daily basis and would put it up against just about any of the higher touted and more expensive guns.

 

[Justin]

If this thread doesn't get back on the topic of Ruger and plastic parts in firearms, I will close it.

The discussion of Ruger being a traitor to the cause is one that we've had about 200,000 times before, and is unlikely to bring forth any useful information.

 

[GRIZ22]

You have to look at comments like this in the context of the times. The Commodore 64 was the common home computer at the time. Wow 64kb of RAM! I heard recently that it took over 100 years for there to be 1,000,000,000 telephones on the planet. It only took 5 more years to double that number due to the growth of cell phones. Technology moves at a fantastic rate.

Glock was just starting in firearms at this time. Smith and Wesson was king of the LE handgun market. I last heard Glock now had 60% of the LE market due to not only reliability and toughness but cost. The major factor bean counters look at. Most manufacturers have at least several plastic frame handguns in their lineup.

20 years before Ruger made that comment everyone was calling the M16 the "Matty Mattel" rifle. Ruger referred to "sporting arms" and there is still a lot of wood and steel firearms folks out there. Have nothing against Bill Ruger he was a genius that found at niche and made himself one of the big guys in this country.

 

[atblis]

Some of you

need to go and reread (or read) the quote!

...I don’t foresee this type of material being used in sporting arms. First, the materials would be too heavy to be practical; secondly, such materials would constitute a break with what matter of tradition that tends to be a part of every serious shooter’s personality. Instead, I feel there should be emphasis on improving our modern steels.”

And they have improved modern steel manufacturing and it has paid off for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ruger's castings. I like other guns more, but Rugers aren't usually junk.

Bringing Glock into this argument has nothing to do with Ruger's statements. He was talking about "sporting arms" which I am most certain Glocks are not.

 

[lathedog]

That sure seems like a wierd comment for two reasons: contemporary usage of plastics in 1984 and the weight comment.

I forget exactly when Glocks came out, but H&K used a lot of plastic even back then. I have a P9S that was a used police trade-in back in 1984 and it had a polymer sheath over a stamped steel internal frame. There was also a polymer bodied (probably over steel - not sure) Israeli made gun called a Sirkhis (sp?) that was advertised a lot back then. Also I believe the AUG was on the street and doesn't that have a plastic fire control group?

Plastics or Ceramics being too heavy. Hmmm. Not sure about that one.

Winchester made a nylon reinforced thin-wall barreled 12 gage in the 50's. One complaint (other than some burst barrels) was the light weight making it tough to swing on birds or clays.

An earlier post mentioned age embrittlement of plastics. Part of the polymer outgasses and what is left is brittle. Any chemist types out there? Any material will suffer over time. I think the plastics used in frames today are good for many years. However, I have a hard time believing that my Glock will last as long as an all steel gun. Plastic is hard to inspect for impending failures, impossible to repair.

Much recent firearms design is driven by manufacturing costs. Plastic is an acceptable material for use that is cheap to mold, can be worked with cheap tools and low tool wear, and happens to provide weight reduction. It is what it is.

Bill Ruger really helped to promote the false idea that "even" the gun industry and gun owners were in favor of gun legislation. This is a favored publicity tactic of the anti's even today, and Bill rolled over on all of us big time. Very similar to S&W a few years back. He also brought a lot of decent quality guns to market to fill the needs of shooters at fair prices.