Deltaboy1984
Member
#4 and up works but I trust 00 buck and HP slugs.
birdshot question
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I saw a video (documentary) where a young man found himself on the victim end of a gang initiation. The perp shot him at very close range with a shotgun. (They didn't say what gauge). Anyway, he was at varying distance from the victim starting about 10 feet and then closer. The first shot hit the victims arm. The victim then turned toward the perp who blasted him in the chest. Then the perp closed distance and tried for a head shot, but the victim managed to bat the gun a little and the shot only grazed his head. Then the perp stole the victims car. The victim stood up and walked to find help.
The victim here is just some teenager. Not someone hopped up on drugs or in a fit of rage.
They didn't talk much about the round used, but they did show a chest X-ray and it was obviously birdshot.
Thank goodness the perp didn't know anything about shotgun ammo.
The only time you will be justified pulling the trigger on another human is if they are coming at you with intent. Will blasting them with birdshot hurt them? Yes. Will it stop them? Maybe.
That 'maybe' is the problem I have with birdshot.
I'll see if I can find the video...
Yep here it is.
http://youtu.be/6klClwZVHfE
The victim here is just some teenager. Not someone hopped up on drugs or in a fit of rage.
They didn't talk much about the round used, but they did show a chest X-ray and it was obviously birdshot.
Thank goodness the perp didn't know anything about shotgun ammo.
The only time you will be justified pulling the trigger on another human is if they are coming at you with intent. Will blasting them with birdshot hurt them? Yes. Will it stop them? Maybe.
That 'maybe' is the problem I have with birdshot.
I'll see if I can find the video...
Yep here it is.
http://youtu.be/6klClwZVHfE
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CajunBass
Member
I've used No 8 birdshot to finish off buckshot downed deer several times and it cut a nice neat cookie cutter hole through a deer's head you could read the newspaper through. Of course the range was measured in single digit feet.
Buckshot costs too much? Good grief. How much do you buy? I bought a full box of 25, 3" 000 about 35 years ago. I've still got a half dozen or so of them...and the box they came in. That stuff beats me up too bad to shoot tin cans with. I use birdshot for that. I save buck for serious use.
Sav .250
Member
Not that much difference in price. Funny how folks are trying to save a little "change" when their life could be on the line.
Why not get the "rubber" bullets they sell?
Why not get the "rubber" bullets they sell?
lemaymiami
Member
Item one..... I carried and relied on my shotgun for many years on the street. I wouldn't consider using anything other than 00buck or rifled slug. We were never issued anything other than ordinary inexpensive 2 3/4" rounds for our duty weapons (but did use birdshot for training purposes when standard buck wasn't necessary for that particular training routine....). An ordinary 00buck round is a terribly efficient fight ender from close range out to about 20 meters, period. The police shotguns in my era were almost always chambered for 2 3/4 only (remington or mossberg), 1973-1995.
Item two, if you ever have the opportunity to see the wounds created by the round above in the distances described.... you'll never have a doubt about it's capacity as a fight ender.
Item three, every 00buck round in the 2 3/4 inch version only contained nine pellets at
.33 caliber.
Item two, if you ever have the opportunity to see the wounds created by the round above in the distances described.... you'll never have a doubt about it's capacity as a fight ender.
Item three, every 00buck round in the 2 3/4 inch version only contained nine pellets at
.33 caliber.
Someone at shotgunworld actually did ballistics gel testing on a few types of birdshot, it turns out that lead BB shot will actually penetrate to 12 inches and looks like it would be good for home defense, anything under BB doesn't quite reach the 12 inch minimum though. Here is the thread with pictures:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&sid=2cf052172f5e5c85c296c201a6fc6ca0
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&sid=2cf052172f5e5c85c296c201a6fc6ca0
im not advocating the use or not use of birdshot as a defensive round....
but the fact that people have been shot with birdshot and survived doesnt prove it is an ineffective round.
hell, there are reports of people surviving 10+ rounds of .45........yet no one argues a .45 is ineffective.
there are reports of people surviving shots with .30-06.......no one argues a .30-06 in ineffective.
hell, there are even reports of people surviving .50BMG........
but the fact that people have been shot with birdshot and survived doesnt prove it is an ineffective round.
hell, there are reports of people surviving 10+ rounds of .45........yet no one argues a .45 is ineffective.
there are reports of people surviving shots with .30-06.......no one argues a .30-06 in ineffective.
hell, there are even reports of people surviving .50BMG........
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CajunBass
Member
That's the "standard" 2 3/4" 12 00 load. The 2 3/4" "short magnum" load is 12 pellets of 00. The 3" is 15.
SeekHer
Member
First off good sirs one has to define what birdshot actually is?
I say this as the transitional shot sizes of TT and F are considered bird shot...Looking at the chart below, their sizes are just a tad smaller then #4 buck which the FBI favours.
I can assure you from first hand witnessing of the event that a magnum goose load of #2 lead birdshot will kill a 200 lb. man (wearing cold weather gear as well) at about 12 yds.
I use a duplex load of #TT and #2 bird to dispose of feral dogs and have easily taken down Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds with it up to about 30 yds.
I think we have to rephrase the quote "birdshot is only for the birds" to read "Only really small birdshot is for the birds".
Size......(in)...Nbr in 1 Oz
Buck
#0000…....0.38……....4
#000….....0.36.…......6.25
#00….......0.33….......8.13
#0…........0.32..…......9
#1…........0.30…......10.6
#2 ….......0.27…......12.5
#3 ….......0.25…......18
#4…........0.24…......20.3
Bird--Transitional
#F…........0.22…......28.1
#TT…......0.21…......29.5
#T…........0.20…......31.3
#BBB….....0.19…......43.8
Bird
#BB….......0.18….....46.5
#B….........0.17….....50
#1….........0.16….....70.8
#2….........0.15….....93.8
These below only at very, very close range
#3….........0.14…..…113
#4….........0.12…....150
I say this as the transitional shot sizes of TT and F are considered bird shot...Looking at the chart below, their sizes are just a tad smaller then #4 buck which the FBI favours.
I can assure you from first hand witnessing of the event that a magnum goose load of #2 lead birdshot will kill a 200 lb. man (wearing cold weather gear as well) at about 12 yds.
I use a duplex load of #TT and #2 bird to dispose of feral dogs and have easily taken down Great Danes and Irish Wolfhounds with it up to about 30 yds.
I think we have to rephrase the quote "birdshot is only for the birds" to read "Only really small birdshot is for the birds".
Size......(in)...Nbr in 1 Oz
Buck
#0000…....0.38……....4
#000….....0.36.…......6.25
#00….......0.33….......8.13
#0…........0.32..…......9
#1…........0.30…......10.6
#2 ….......0.27…......12.5
#3 ….......0.25…......18
#4…........0.24…......20.3
Bird--Transitional
#F…........0.22…......28.1
#TT…......0.21…......29.5
#T…........0.20…......31.3
#BBB….....0.19…......43.8
Bird
#BB….......0.18….....46.5
#B….........0.17….....50
#1….........0.16….....70.8
#2….........0.15….....93.8
These below only at very, very close range
#3….........0.14…..…113
#4….........0.12…....150
At the distance you would likely use a shotgun to defend yourself in the house, birdshot is quite deadly. At 5 to 7 yds there is little spread in the shot esp. if you are using a typical hunting shotgun with a modified or full choke. You will have to aim, the idea of pointing from the hip or in the general direction can get you killed unless you have had enough practice at shooting form the hip. I know a few guys that can bust clays effectively that way but it took them lots of practice to get that good.
The larger the shot, the deeper the penetration and the greater the effective range. Remember, the bigger the number, the smaller the shot size. I prefer a lead BB load but a number 4 shot or larger in 1-1/4 oz Pheasant or Turkey load would do the trick better than a 1-1/8 oz trap load of no 7-1/2 or 8 shot.
Regardless of what shell you use if you shoot them in the head or upper chest they're likely not long for this world.
The larger the shot, the deeper the penetration and the greater the effective range. Remember, the bigger the number, the smaller the shot size. I prefer a lead BB load but a number 4 shot or larger in 1-1/4 oz Pheasant or Turkey load would do the trick better than a 1-1/8 oz trap load of no 7-1/2 or 8 shot.
Regardless of what shell you use if you shoot them in the head or upper chest they're likely not long for this world.
RCL
Member
I will say what I do know.....that when it came time to slaughter a beef on my Granddad's farm when I was growing up, my father would do the deed with the same 16 gauge field load he used for pheasants. From within 5 feet (shot in the forehead) it would drop an 800 pound heifer in it's tracks.
LeonCarr
Member
None...use #4 Buckshot or larger, with Low Recoil 00 Buckshot ideal.
Do not be cheap and do not play games with your life or your loved ones lives.
BIRDSHOT DOES NOT PENETRATE DEEP ENOUGH TO RELIABLY STOP A HUMAN ATTACKER.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Do not be cheap and do not play games with your life or your loved ones lives.
BIRDSHOT DOES NOT PENETRATE DEEP ENOUGH TO RELIABLY STOP A HUMAN ATTACKER.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
rbernie
Contributing Member
Actually, it's not. It lacks the ability to penetrate ribs or skull at anything beyond contact distance, and statistically it's not nearly as effective as buckshot.
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