Bismuth roundballs?

[Thecrazedorganist]

As you guys probably know, the State of California forbids hunting with lead ammunition in "condor zones," and has been considering extending that ban to the entire state. :banghead: I've noticed that in addition to lead-free birdshot, the major companies are beginning to offer lead-free rifle bullets!

But what about us roundball folks? I've been thinking about trying my hand at casting bismuth roundballs. It's not that much harder than lead, so I'm guessing it wouldn't be too problematic. Also, even though bismuth bullets have been known to disintegrate at high velocities, our smokepoles don't produce that kind of speed so I'm thinking they would be ok. The only concern I have are reports of bismuth powder being pyrophoric(!). Is that really the case?

Anybody tried this?

 

[zxcvbob]

First I would check to see if musket balls fit the legal definition of "ammunition".

 

[Das Jaeger]

I never realized

Condors food source was lead round balls ? Hmmm , things that make ya go hmmmm ?

Das Jaeger

PS........I hated hunting Ducks with Bismuth on Grizzly Island , it sucked ! It took me three rounds to wound my duck , then headshot him at 20 yards while he was creamin in pain trying to swim away . Bismuth=BS .............

 

[Cosmoline]

I'd like to try some DU roundballs.

 

[arcticap]

py·ro·phor·ic (pr-fôrk, -fr-) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Spontaneously igniting in air.
Producing sparks by friction.
ETYMOLOGY:
From pyrophorus, substance that ignites spontaneously : from Greek purophoros, fire-bearing puro-, pyro- + -phoros, -phorous

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/pyrophoric

In addition to patching the bismuth round ball, it could be loaded over a thick over powder wad to seal off the powder from any potential sparks.
Something like a greased leather wad could work.

How about brass or bronze as an alternative metal?
They're cheaper than silver which IIRC is what the Lone Ranger's bullets were made of. (And Silver was also the name of his horse! )
What game animals are in the zone that you like to hunt?
I guess that you could hunt with very round tumbled rocks
and be ultra traditional.

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

Condors food source was lead round balls ? Hmmm , things that make ya go hmmmm ?

Das Jaeger

PS........I hated hunting Ducks with Bismuth on Grizzly Island , it sucked ! It took me three rounds to wound my duck , then headshot him at 20 yards while he was creamin in pain trying to swim away . Bismuth=BS .............

Oh that's no good. I'm all set to go hunt pheasant in a few months in a condor zone. Maybe I'll try to find somewhere else to do it... needless suffering in the name of environmental protection boggles my brain.

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

In addition to patching the ball, the bismuth round ball could be loaded over a thick over powder wad to seal off the powder from any potential sparks.
Something like a greased leather wad could work.

How about brass or bronze as an alternative metal?
They're cheaper than silver which IIRC is what the Lone Ranger's bullets were made of. (And Silver was also the name of his horse! )
What game animals are in the zone that you like to hunt?
I guess that you could hunt with very round tumbled rocks
and be ultra traditional.

Well I was sort of liking the whole 271* C melting point of bismuth thing. lol If I can find humane non-lead shot, I'm going to be upland game hunting with my shotgun. The revolver is my sidearm.

 

[messerist]

What dingbat determined that condors were dying from eating carrion contaminated with lead bullets....show me the money so to speak. the odds would have to be in the "astronomical" range.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Wow

they have really gone nuts down in California since I was there Crazedorganist , it was only waterfowl you had to use Bismuth or some other alternative with on the Delta ? Now its Upland game too , good grief , whats next , Squirrels and all furbearing ammals too ? Or am I too late on that one too ?

I aint a bad shot either , but I couldn't beleive it took me three high base brass 12 ga. with #4 to bring down a Mallard at 35 yards ? That boggeld my mind with an 870 Remington no less with full choke tube installed . I swore I drilled him good three times too . I swore to never do that to a bird again either .

Das Jaeger .

 

[arcticap]

Hunters have traditionally been the leading proponents of wildlife protection. Just ask Teddy Roosevelt!
The bad news is that the lead poisoning claims appear to be valid.
The good news is that there's a lot of new lead free bullets available for most guns including .22lr.
Unfortunately, we're not hearing about any lead free round balls yet.
But on the other hand, there's copper bullets for the muzzle loading hunters with a fast barrel twist, whether it's inline or sidelock.
And there's also several types of lead free shot to use which are known to be quite effective, especially with bismuth being 90% as heavy as lead. Hevi-Shot has a greater effective lethal range than even lead has.

Lead poisoning from ingesting lead fragments in carcasses has been the leading cause of death for reintroduced condors in California and Arizona. Since 1992, at least 15 condor deaths in California have been confirmed or linked to lead poisoning, and dozens more poisoned condors have required invasive, life-saving chelation therapy to “de-lead” their blood after feeding on lead-tainted carcasses. One condor died in California in 2008 of apparent lead poisoning.

Scientific studies provide overwhelming evidence that the lead poisoning condors comes from ammunition fragments in carcasses and gut piles left behind in the condor range by hunters. In 2007, more than 45 prominent wildlife biologists signed a “Statement of Scientific Agreement” concluding that lead ammunition is the primary source of the lead that is poisoning condors.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2009/condor-lead-02-10-2009.html

In addition:

The lead-free ammunition regulations are designed to reduce lead poisonings of the iconic and extremely endangered California condor. Condors, eagles, and other scavengers such as ravens, turkey vultures, and black bears can consume lead-bullet fragments and lead-shot pellets from carcasses of animals shot by hunters.

A higher percentage of hunters appear to be using non-lead ammunition in California under state regulations than the purported 70 percent of hunters in Arizona now using non-lead ammunition under that state’s voluntary program

.

 

[Voodoochile]

I'll have to hunt it down but I read an article about this once in a NMLRA magazine & one thing was that Bismuth & Pewter weighed less than Lead.

Here it is:
August 2008

From a Lee .495 Ball mold.
Lead .495 = 183gr.
Bismuth .498 = 160gr.
Pewter .499 = 119gr.

From the write up it states.
First off, Lead is obviously better for shooting an animal the size of a deer.
Along with better energy retention at longer ranges, you getr some expansion to help make a bigger wound channel.
Neither Pewter nor Bismuth is soft enough to do anything more than just punch a ball-sized hole through the target.
That's not to say that you can not harvest a deer with ball like that but you would have to chose your shots more carefully & either hit the heart or hit it in the neck to break the spine.
If all you do is drill a hole into the deers lungs, he could take off & run for a mile or more before he expires. that's a lot of tracking.

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

Looks like I can still use lead shot for my upland game hunting! As for the sidearm, though, it's a no-go. From the California Department of Fish and Game Website:

"Attention Hunters: "It's time to Get the Lead Out"
California Condor

After nearly a full year of public testimony, discussion, and environmental analyses, the Fish and Game Commission modified the Methods Authorized for Taking Big Game (Section 353, Title 14, CCR) in December, 2007 to prohibit the use of projectiles containing lead for hunting deer, bear, wild pig, elk, and pronghorn antelope in areas designated as California condor range. Modifications to Methods of Take for Nongame Birds and Mammals (Section 475, Title 14, CCR) were also adopted to prohibit the use of lead projectiles in the same areas when hunting coyotes, ground squirrels, and other non-game wildlife. These regulations become effective July 1, 2008.

If you hunt in this area, you will be required to use nonlead projectiles to hunt big-game and non-game species beginning July 1, 2008. In addition, while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition.

NOTE! Lead Projectiles are still legal for hunting upland game species within the nonlead zone."

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

I love how poorly written our laws are. Hunters may not possess a firearm capable of firing lead ammunition?

 

[Das Jaeger]

Insanity I tell ya

Ive' never eatin any Condors that tasted like lead ?

Just because California writes something on paper doesn't mean yu should believe it .
My Government writes stuff all the time that isn't true , rememebr that .

Das Jaeger, the anti Sheep

 

[arcticap]

Other angles to consider:
A .50 bismuth ball weighing 160 grains would penetrate better than a .45 lead ball weighing 138 grains which many use successfully for harvesting deer.

And being comparatively lighter, a .50 bismuth ball would produce higher velocity than a .50 lead ball.

A .54 bismuth ball may perform even better than a .50 lead ball, who knows?

Also, the .45 Barnes all copper bullets are reputed to have among the best combination of accuracy & expansion of any saboted bullet, and fast twist barrels can be fitted for many sidelocks. They may even work reasonably well with a medium twist rate barrel.
Aren't the southern & central Californian blacktail deer a relatively smaller deer?
Deer that are shot cleanly through the lungs will often bed down under cover within a short 50-100 yard distance of where they're hit, that is unless they are really pushed or larger bodied and somehow stronger.
I'd suppose that bismuth round balls wouldn't be too much of a hunting handicap as long as they'll shoot with some accuracy which remains to be seen.

 

[mykeal]

I love how poorly written our laws are. Hunters may not possess a firearm capable of firing lead ammunition

That is a pretty silly statement on it's own. However, when quoted accurately and replaced in the context from which it was taken, it's not quite as dumb as it sounds:

while hunting these species in this area hunters may not possess any lead projectiles/ammunition and a firearm capable of firing that lead projectile or ammunition

The sport of hunting is the most effective wildlife management tool we have to properly husband our resources. As a result of making our own way on this planet we have taken advantage of other species; this is only natural and in our more primitive states completely necessary for our own survival. However, it's no longer necessary. We have an obligation to manage the impact we have and ensure a supportive habitat continues to exist. I've had the very traumatic experience of counting the incredible toll starvation takes in an overpopulated deer herd over the winter. It's heart rending coming upon these magnificent animals in their last moments after months of slowly starving to death. Our failure to properly manage the predators that help keep overpopulation down obligates us to take their place in that important task, and hunting is the means by which we do that. We need to be able to continue to hunt both for our own enjoyment and to meet our obligations to be humane beings. Misquoting and emotionally belittling the scientific controls simply makes it harder for the true hunter to both enjoy his sport and ensure it's still available to his children.

 

[Das Jaeger]

So

I guess I can use my .45 caliber Sam Yang air rifle to topple these wild critters and they wont get lead poisoning from eating the bullets
Its not a firearm ! But it will kill a deer real well , or feed a Condor ?



With Match AR15 sights on Rear and NM Garand front sight , I bet I can hit um too



When they ban air rifles with lead in um too , I guess we can just throw our lead bullets at our game ? I will never succum to stupidity . :banghead:

Das Jaeger

 

[Oyeboten]

...what about pure Tin?

 

[Hellgate]

Why don't they just require the hunters to BURY the gut pile then the little birdies can't find it or dig it up?

 

[Das Jaeger]

This all started

in California when "THEY" said the ducks were eating all the lead the hunters were depositing in the marshes .

Das Jaeger :banghead:

 

[Thecrazedorganist]

Mykeal,

Whoah there! I'm one-hundred-percent in agreement with you in regards to our duty to be compassionate and effective stewards of our planet! Lead is a nasty metal to be sure. BUT the wording of the Department of Fish and Game ruling, even with your qualification, is pretty laughable. I think we all know exactly what is meant by the statement, and I'm pretty sure there's not a single person here who disagrees with the driving force behind it: guarding the sustainability of an ecosystem.

It's one thing to belittle an idea without just cause (though I do think there is a startling LACK OF EVIDENCE that has produced these regulations) and quite another to chuckle at the semantic prowess (or lack thereof) of the DFG employee who typed that statement. If you lived down here you'd know what a hassle it can be to be a gun owner

 

[mykeal]

I sympathize with the plight of California gun owners; there are worse places, but not many. I spent 10 years in California and consider myself fortunate to have been able to move on.

My concentration and experience with wildlife husbandry and hunting is with mammals, especially whitetail deer, gray wolf and black bear. All I know about the California condor is the published science, and what I've seen seems correct and compelling. If there is a body of work disputing those results I've not seen it, but then I've not sought it out, either.

You misquoted the regulation when you posted it; I presume that was intentional and to make a point, that being the regulation was poorly written. The point was lost by the misquote, however; you changed the meaning of the original language and turned the focus in a political direction.

It would be more effective if you'd provide what you consider to be improved language, demonstrating both that you understand the intent and the meaning of the regulation.

Hellgate - gut piles don't stay buried. The vultures always get their share.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Boy oh boy

arent we getting critical here , come on now
I think he was quoting it the way he did because he wanted to draw attention to stupidity , not to make a pollitical statment or rant :banghead:
It was a great quote and one very well formatted if you have any sort of sence of humor at all . Obviously , mmm , you do not . :banghead:

TCO ,
I just hope the you kind find something to shoot there that works well in your guns , thats the moral of this story And in my shotguns and my brothers , Bismuth wasn't it Lead has great density thats why it works so well , and I honestly don't think it hurts the environment or animal husbandry if we want to get rediculous here , again . Moving would be a great alterantive . Buying a couple hundred acres with a large pond on it would also be nice , do as you please so to speak I moved because of stupid

Das Jaeger

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Screw the condors. If they can't keep up, leave 'em behind. Good old buzzards don't seem to have this problem. If lead bullets are eliminated there will be fewer gutpiles for both condors and buzzards. Why deny a buzzard a gutpile to favor a candyass condor? Why stand in the way of natural selection?

Now that science has become a game played by the elites to manipulate the rest of us, I no longer believe its findings. The "scientists" have sold out to get grants and research dollars and will "discover" whatever pleases their sponsors. Science is fast losing its credibility.
Bob

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Its not a firearm

Not so fast. Some airguns are considered firearms according to some states. Check first.