Black Powder Revolver/Pistol

[Cosmoline]

I never said you insulted or attacked the OP, and I did not intend to imply that. I was directing my response more broadly. I do apologize if I gave that impression. You did not attack the OP, he was long gone from THR by the time you and I chimed in.

when it comes to controlling the muzzle of your gun a black powder revolver is the same as a S&W Model 60.

Not really. You don't put a smokeless revolver on a loading stand and hover over the barrel as you load it.

they don't need to be directly in line with the bore centerline at any time

If you can seat a tight fitting ball and patch into a firelock rifle while keeping your hand from passing over the bore axis, you are stronger than I am. Personally, I need to press pretty hard on the ball with the short starter. And I'm not the only one.

Are you prepared to call Don Klein unsafe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjZp-Q794yk

 

[wittzo]

Like I said, if a person is pointing it at himself, it's his business. If he points it at other people or me, I'll remind him he's being unsafe and rude and if he continues, I won't turn my back to him as I leave.

I'm sure the OP is a polite guy and will admit to his error and profusely apologize for his transgression if he sweeps me or others.

 

[mykeal]

You don't put a smokeless revolver on a loading stand and hover over the barrel as you load it.

I really don't understand that statement. Yes, I know that one of the ways to load a black powder revolver is to use a loading stand. I know that you don't use a loading stand with a cartridge revolver. But the part about 'hover over the barrel'...what makes that ok to do?

I maintain that lack of muzzle control is unacceptable. Doesn't matter who it is. It's unacceptable if I do it, it's acceptable if Don Klein does it, it's unacceptable if you do it. You, and others, keep trying to manufacture some situation where poor muzzle control is somehow acceptable for some reason (the gun is unloaded, or it's in a loading stand, or some guru is doing it, or it's just a video...), as if that action justifies having poor discipline in handling firearms. Well, it's not, ever, for any reason. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, or that we should cut off the hands of anyone who does it. I'm saying it's bad practice, we should be aware of it and we should take every opportunity to correct it. At the very least we need to stop trying to justify it or excuse it.

One last time: answer the last two questions, yes or no. That should suffice to explain my position.

 

[SixxshootinSam]

Mykeal since you are the self proclaimed expert on gun safetly why don't you indulge us with a video of you doing it the proper way. You keep talking about it so why not show everyone?
I feel bad for the poster, like someone said, he will probably never even come back to this place. I would not either if I was barraged with insults and 'jokes'.

PS Cosmoline, I load my rifle the exact way Don Klein does it, but apparently thats bad. mkay.

 

[Cosmoline]

I am actually quite curious. I'm not a small man or a weak one, but I'll be darned if I can seat ball and patch in a rifle without bearing down pretty hard on the thing. If you are off-axis you will just skid off your ball and smear the lead, ruining it. Maybe Mykeal is using a big hammer? Not sure I'd want to do it that way.

You, and others, keep trying to manufacture some situation where poor muzzle control is somehow acceptable for some reason (the gun is unloaded, or it's in a loading stand, or some guru is doing it, or it's just a video...), as if that action justifies having poor discipline in handling firearms.

You apparently have such a broad definition of "poor muzzle control" that everyone who loads black powder is guilty of this crime.

But the part about 'hover over the barrel'...what makes that ok to do?

You have to to load a muzzleloader. A partially loaded smokeless revolver pointing up towards shooters working on it is unsafe. But a muzzleloader must be pointed up as you load it. Otherwise the powder will fall out. The rules about "never pointing a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy" must be interpreted with common sense. That means you are permitted to place body parts over the bore of a ML'r while you're loading it. You have to. Custom dictates how this is done safely, but these customs do not apply to smokeless firearms. Different systems, different rules. I'm not sure why that's so tough to understand. But with instructors telling people they have to seat balls without putting their hands over the muzzle, it's no wonder there's so much confusion among newbies.

 

[mykeal]

SixshootinSam:

I do not have the equipment to make videos, so I cannot comply with your demand. Also, I don't believe I ever proclaimed I was an expert in gun safety. If that's not correct, please provide a citation and I'll apologize; otherwise, it's up to you to apologize to me for falsely claiming I did so.

If you, or anyone else, really needs instruction in how keep from unnecessarily endangering yourself while loading a long rifle, I suggest you contact the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA). They have regional representatives and charter clubs in every state and can provide training programs.

In the mean time, with respect to Mr. Klein's video, which some feel is a gold standard: I load the same way Mr. Klein does with three exceptions. He places his palm directly over the centerline of the muzzle three separate times, twice with the short starter and once with the ramrod. I do not do that. I hold the side of the short starter and use a small mallet to tap the top of the ball on the short starter. I hold the ramrod on the side with my fingers and palm and use the mallet on the end if necessary. This works with all my long rifles regardless of how tight the ball and patch are. For instance, I use a .535 ball with 0.018 dry lubed pillow ticking in a .54 GPR and can load even without swabbing the bore with that technique. However, I usually swab after each shot. It can be done.

However, that's not the point, and you keep ignoring it. Don Klein's use of his palm to drive the ball down with the short starter and ramrod is, in my opinion, avoidable, unnecessary and ultimately unsafe. However, in and of itself the fact that he loads that way does not excuse the intentional, clearly unsafe lack of muzzle control exhibited in the video in the first post in this thread. I invite you to provide yes or no answers to the three questions I posed above.

Cosmoline: I use a small brass head hammer, weighing 6 ozs. It works. Every time.

Wittzo: It's everyone's business if an individual fails to control the muzzle of his gun. You may not be given the opportunity to walk away backwards - you may be at the other end of the firing line or on the other side of a wall. The bullet will still reach you. Lack of muzzle control discipline is like drunk driving in that it affects everyone in the vicinity whether they know it or not.

 

[Cosmoline]

Don Klein's use of his palm to drive the ball down with the short starter and ramrod is, in my opinion, avoidable, unnecessary and ultimately unsafe.

Well that pretty much ends the matter. If you think that's unsafe, then every smokepole shooter I know is unsafe, and the answer to your questions is that not only is the shooter in the OP showing moor muzzle discipline, everyone else is too. It means every short starter made is unsafe, particularly those with a ball for pressing with the palm.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

All of the arm chair BP shooters have pointed the loading of the pistol is pointed at loaders chest. But in reality If you have actually have loaded a black powder gun. You body parts are always in direct path of the barrel or the cylinders with bullets and powder if you use lever on revolver, ram rod or a starter ball on muzzleloader.

The act of putting the hammer down to rest on a live cap and a loaded cylinder is much more dangerous than loading the gun in this video. It is the same as carrying a pistol with your finger on the trigger. This will be the real disaster because there are half cock position and safety notches.

 

[pohill]

The OP hasn't been on this forum, at least not signed in, since he posted the video. I went back to look at his other 5 posts and they all direct the reader to go to his Utube site and watch his videos. I watched a few of them. In each video, he is very safety conscious - I was being picky when I watched, looking for any small infractions. I really didn't see any. He seems like a nice guy trying to promote firearm videos. That's fine. I really think he was out of his element with the BP revolver, a fact that he even admitted to in the video (learn as we go, etc). I think alot of "modern" firearms shooters have that problem when trying BP for the first time, and some even think that BP guns are toys, which they are not.
He also seems like the kind of guy who could take a joke and probably give it right back to you. I don't think he was scared off at all, and if he was, then maybe he'll stick to modern firearms, which he appears to have a good knowledge of.
Remember, he posted that BP video. If he thought we were all going to pat him on the back and say Great Job, well, he was wrong.
There's no way around it - IN MY OPINION, it was unsafe and unwise the way he loaded and capped that revolver.
And for those posters that are offended, for the original OP, by jokes and comments, what can I say - it's a rough world. He could come back and defend himself, but he hasn't.

 

[Chazz]

Of course he is loading it wrong, even worse he reloaded after shooting it, and still pointing at his chest.... the gun is always hot, but much more after shooting it. Had something still be burning in the chamber his shoulder would of been blown off.

Then the caps not firing, the pellets etc... Hopefully the guy learned something from this forum.

 

[ak-kev]

Yea, he learned not to post anything else in this forum. So much for being the "high road"

 

[junkman_01]

He posted here trying to show us how it's done.....NOT! :banghead:

 

[pohill]

deleted

 

[rdstrain49]

Maybe it's time to move on.

 

[Chazz]

Yea, he learned not to post anything else in this forum. So much for being the "high road"

I meant maybe he WILL learn something from this forum lol.... and maybe some newbie will too after reading this thread.... I would imagine there's plenty of people who go out on their own trying BP never learning the ropes from experienced shooters.... some just learn the hard way.

Maybe he will come back and post? There's no reason for him to shy away lol... He's a lucky man!

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I will say this. I don't come on here much anymore, partly because it's the same old questions all of the time, and partly because I know I'm not well liked on here, and partly because people have spent a lot of time on here running me down because I go with all chambers loaded and the hammer resting on a live cap, and partly because several people on here that I could name but won't name spend a lot of their time talking out of both sides of their pie hole. In the first place I know that it take's what could be described as a 'sharp, rather hard and abrupt' blow to set off a # 10 or #11 percussion cap, at least for a Remington cap which is the only type of cap I have ever used and ever plan on using. Anyone who is climbing a steep hill or mountain or a tree, or perhaps riding an unruly horse, or anything of that nature and dosen't have enough sense to use a hammer throng (or strap in some cases if the holster come's so equipped) to secure the hammer and/or to keep the revolver from falling out of the holster dosen't belong within 40 feet of a black powder revolver. The same people who will jump on here and preach and sermonize against carrying the revolver with the hammer resting on a live cap are the very same people who will jump on here and preach and sermonize about how you can finger push or stick push on a live cap as hard as you please every day of the week and twice on Sunday and the cap will not go off. I surely wish they would pick out which side of the fence they want and get on that side and stay there. They cannot have it both ways in spite of what they jump on here and preach....I hope everybody even remotely connected with this site will read this post at least 15 times....No reply is needed. I have no intention of arguing with anyone about this or about what I know to be true....

 

[JShirley]

Good god.

C'mon, folks. We're better than this.

John