Blackpowder .38 spl loads?

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Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find much by searching. I load .38 Special on a single-stage press right now, and am curious about the possibilities for black powder in this cartridge. Are standard pistol primers still used? What's the procedure? Prime case, charge, seat bullet as usual? Does anyone have any load data?
 
The original 1899 38 special load was either 21 or 21.5 grains of black powder-I disremember which, and a 158 grain round nose. The cases were probably folded head with a bit more capacity than the solid heads we have now. (Heck, maybe specials have always been solid head but I doubt it.)

Small pistol primers would be right and 3f g is the probable granulation.
 
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For elementary black powder loading, first you need some black powder. FFg or FFFg most usually. Load whatever amount for your powder, bullet, and brass that will be compressed by seating the bullet; 1/8" of compression is usually OK. You will not likely get in the 21 grains of the 1899 Special in that era's thin brass. That's ok, you will still get smoke.

A lot of references call for magnum primers but lately BPCR target shooters have been going to standard primers or even pistol primers in rifle cases for mild ignition and better accuracy. Either will work well enough to get started, no need to buy special.

You MUST have black powder bullet lube. The usual hard wax on commercial cast bullets is not adequate. Meister sells their regular hardcast bullets with SPG lube, and this outfit seems to specialize in softer bullets and BB lube, although I have NOT tried them.
http://www.cowboybullets.com/index.html

A search on the SASS Wire has some other brands
http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18565&hl=black+powder+bullets

If you will not get BP lubed bullets, shoot one of the fakes, 777 is pretty good as fake powders go. Expensive but more available than real black and easier to clean up than Pyrodex.

Clean with Windex, soap & water, or whatever other detergent type cleaner you might happen to have handy. Dry and oil. It looks messy but is not difficult.
 
I would advise against using a powder measure with black powder or one of the substitutes. I've heard that they make it difficult to clean up afterwards.

I would use a dipper. A grain or so difference doesn't matter in black powder shooting.
 
I have read, also, that the original .38 special design had a heal type bullet (like a .22) with external lubrication. I think that was changed early in the design process. But, the original bullet was a .380 or close, thus, .38 caliber. when they decided to put the bullet IN the case, it became .357". At least that's the story I read on the reason for the .38 designation rather than, say, .36. I'm not sure what the heal crimped bullet did for case capacity, but I'd think it might have a little more volume with such a bullet. And, I think the bullet weight was originally 200 grains, but I don't know that for sure.
 
Terrific, thanks gents! Since this is just for goofing around I'm not too keen on buying bullets specially for this, so I'll just pick up some 777 and use my normal hard-cast. If it turns out I really dig it, well, that's another story. :)
 
45 Colt BP loads are a blast.

35gr Goex 2fg, 255gr LFP = 915fps

40gr same powder/bullet = 945fps

35gr Goex 4fg, same bullet = 1005fps

Lube was a 50/50 mix of beeswax and BoreButter.

7 1/2" Uberti, recoil with the last load is noticable!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
I've thought about loading up some BP in some .45 colts, but I don't wanna soot up my Ruger.
I was thinking the same thing.
I have an Encore on order and am contemplating a dedicated 10" BP pistol barrel, more than likely .45 Colt.
I figger a removable single shot barrel would make cleanup about as easy as it gets.
Real gunsmoke at the range always piques my interest.
 
MCgunner said:
I have read, also, that the original .38 special design had a heal type bullet (like a .22) with external lubrication. I think that was changed early in the design process. But, the original bullet was a .380 or close, thus, .38 caliber. when they decided to put the bullet IN the case, it became .357". At least that's the story I read on the reason for the .38 designation rather than, say, .36. I'm not sure what the heal crimped bullet did for case capacity, but I'd think it might have a little more volume with such a bullet. And, I think the bullet weight was originally 200 grains, but I don't know that for sure.

McGunner, you're thinking of the .38 Long Colt with an outside heeled bullet. The case for the .38 LC is the same as the .38 Special case, only shorter. The .38 LC came before the .38 Special.
In the .38 LC, a heeled bullet was used. After the bullet was seated in the charged case, the cartridge was turned over and the bullet dipped in melted lubricant right up to where the lead met the brass case.
The lubricant was allowed to cool then the cartridges packed into cardboard boxes for sale.
The diameter of the .38 LC heel was about .358 or .360 inch, so it would remain firmly in the case. Bullet diameter was .375 to .378 inch, and the bore was the same diameter.
A major problem with outside lubricated bullets is that the sticky lubricant attracts grit, grime and all sorts of crud. It also smears off easily and will get your pockets greasy.
Shooters complained. In response, in the late 1800s or early 1900s, the ammo manufacturers began making .38 LC ammo with a smaller diameter bullet with lubricant along its side.
This bullet had a deep hollow base in it, much like the Minie' bullet of the Civil War. Most of the bullet was seated into the case, where the lubricant was protected from crud and it couldn't soil your pockets or be rubbed off.
Upon firing, the gases pushed into the hollow base and caused the bullet to swell slightly. This "swollen" bullet gripped the rifling of the .375 inch bore.
Or, at least, in theory it worked. But accuracy suffered because the undersized bullet didn't always bump up enough to completely engage the rifling or make a good seal.
Sooooooo ... Smith & Wesson took the .38 LC case, lengthened it a bit, loaded it with black powder, topped it off with an inside-lubricated bullet of about .358 inch and ---- most importantly, changed the bore size from .375 to .357 or thereabouts.
This new cartridge was dubbed the .38 Special.
And yes, you read right, the first .38 Special cartridges were loaded with black powder. That's why the case is comparatively long, to accommodate 21 grains (or so) of black powder.
Within a few years of introduction, the factories produced .38 Special cartridges with smokeless powder.
In my cartridge collection I have a .38 Special cartridge that has been identified as being a black powder round. I only have one cartridge, so I've never broken it open to determine its propellant. A well-read cartridge collector identified it as such.
Its headstamp is W.R.A. Co. .38 S&W. SP'L. The case is brass. The primer is copper colored and has a W impressed into the primer. The lead, roundnosed bullet has a short ridge of lead just ahead of the case, not quite a shoulder. There is a canellure around the case, presumably at the bullet's case, about 1/3 of the way back from the case mouth.

Yes, you can load black powder in the .38 Special. However, for best accuracy and to avoid terrible leading you should use a bullet that is very soft, pure lead if you can get it.
Hard-cast bullets, when used with black powder, typically create bad leading.
Lubricate the bullet with a soft, non-petroleum lubricant such as SPG or Lyman Black Powder Gold.
The black powder MUST be slightly compressed by the bullet or you'll get lousy igntion.
After firing, you'll need to punch out the dead primers and wash the cases well in hot, soapy water. If you don't, the black powder will begin corroding your cases in short order.
Of course, you'll also have to clean your revolver with an approved black powder solvent or soapy water. Dry thoroughly afterward.
 
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