Body Armor: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

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Thanks for the informative post, though I don't think I'd use Kevin McClung as proof of anything unless perhaps your subject is some type of blade. I'm just very skeptical of folks who make unsubstantiated claims of working for the CIA.

Didn't selling vests made of a heat-degrading material bankrupt Second Chance?

John
 
Second Chance is still around, their products are listed on the Safariland website.

I wish my Dept would look into that new corrections multi threat armor.
 
Armoredman- Sorry to hear that. Sent PM. I would say with 70% certainty that that vest contains laminates as well. Will give you a certain answer ASAP. Remember that Galls was one of the parties named in the class action suit re: Zylon in vests- I no longer trust them for soft armor.

JShirley, I mentioned Mad Dog simply because he was a tireless advocate of getting crappy materials out of armor. The BMOC is as always Doctor Gary Roberts, known as DocGKR. He is the man to listen to regarding body armor materials and ballistics, and has the creds and experience to back it up. Kevin is quite a "colorful" personality, eh? Da*n fine knives though. You are correct, it was the Zylon Scandal that bankrupted them. They drug their feet getting Zylon out of armor, offering vest "Upgrades" (consisting of a facing of woven Kevlar) for the Zylon vests, instead of just replacing them. They *still* make vests with laminates, and I don't trust them any further than I can throw them. Their woven Kevlar stuff is as always GTG (I wear 2nd Chance Monarch panels Circa 1985 and 1991), but finding it is difficult sometimes.

Boanerges, thanks again for mentioning this. Multi hit level IV is not officially recognized by the NIJ, .mil ratings are independent of the NIJ, and there are currently NO wearable steel level IV plates. I appreciate the confirmation. :)
 
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D-R, thank you for your great wealth of information, I for one appreciate all that you've chose to share with us, not to sell a product, but to inform the consumer and those choosing to put something between them and metal flying at them at ballistic speeds :)

Though I don't have the money for a vest, I'd love one and I will definitely reference this when the time comes. I've always wondered what the 'skinny' on armor was but didn't find much info on it that seemed reliable, so again, thank you.
 
Didn't selling vests made of a heat-degrading material bankrupt Second Chance?

Yes, Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection as a result of numerous lawsuits filed against Second Chance over it zylon use, the final proverbial straw, IIRC, being a class action suit on behalf of Texas law enforcement officers.
 
So you've got me. I can't find any kevlar-coated pots/pans (But I found quite a few gloves and pot handlers.) Nor can I find wearable IV steel plates for sale (But there are a few carriable shields. Definitely not for the same purpose.)

The original point still stands though, you want me to prove a tree and ignore the forest. The last I heard, milk jugs were not designed to be bullet-proof, (Isn't that why pots/pans didn't matter anyways?) and I don't see why they were mentioned. Vague wording and hand wavy implications were the whole reason I came to point out some misleading (At least in the case of Spectra milk jugs) information.

Regardless though, this is still good information (I feel as though I've come off snarky, maybe it's because it's so early here?) If so, I apologize.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving with you and yours =)
 
D-R I was only reiterating it because it seemed like you werent getting through to a few.

wiki and a few armor manufacturers have very good info on the nij specs.

In response to a question about dragon skin:
this wiki link will provide a bulk of information to you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin

There is no information i can find that will confirm what kind of aramid fiber is used in making these vests. The armor discs are made of a hardened steel face backed with composites of some form (im betting on ceramic) and clay.
 
I am unlikely to buy body armor but it is certainly good to know what will defeat it. It is most unlikely that anyone with level IV will be attacking me, but it a appears that an old fashioned garand w/ black tip AP hitting in that same place with multiples hits will defeat it as well as just about anything else. Most armor leaves the legs, arms, neck, head exposed and so one is not invulnerable, but then no one claims that.
 
After reading his posts it really is just a gut feeling. The guy from the power company that you are paying your bill too sounds pretty knowledgeable at the various town halls, too, when he tells you that alternative energy doesn't work and you should just stick with them.

Marketing is designed to do exactly what is being done to your opinion right now, and that is what tipped me off.

Do I know the first thing about "proper" body armor? No. But I do know a thing or three about the scientific method. And frankly this is way too unambiguous to be anything but either a strong opinion piece or marketing.

Unfortunately for your example, Alternative energy doesn't work, at least not at competitive prices, so the guy from the power company is right.

If you have different information, then present it. Since you don't, man up and apologize.

This is supposed to be the "High Road", but I find in almost every discussion, someone takes exception to some simple fact or statement, and then precedes to nitpick every point.

I remember ridiculous discussions of Cooper's "Four Rules" where people fixated on the abbreviated version of them, ignoring his own explanations and expansions of his rules.

There was a recent nasty attack upon a young college student who made a complaint about being questioned by campus security about his gun advocacy. It seems that some people just have to attack other peoples credibility, not because they have any evidence otherwise, just because they can.

D-R; Thank you for your information. I appreciate your post and the information. The fact that some idiots attack you for being better than them, merely emphasizes that point.
 
Anybody know what USpalm uses (uspalm.com)
Since their website doesn't say and the price seems reasonable, I'll assume the cheapest stuff.

If it is THR to ask, who/what sells good cheap kevlar to civilians on US soil? Searching Amazon doesn't seem edifying.
 
^ So I'm guessing a good 5 grand for a body armor vest is about expected?

I'm just very skeptical of folks who make unsubstantiated claims of working for the CIA.

I've been getting "I work for the CIA" thing since 02, back when some kid in summer camp decided that he had to be cool.
 
Unfortunately for your example, Alternative energy doesn't work, at least not at competitive prices, so the guy from the power company is right.
This is largely due to the existence of energy subsidies and the exculpation from the responsibilities of the negative externalities which are inherent to that avenue of energy production. So while technically true, it doesn't provide a rational plan for our energy infrastructure any more than the AMA's observations regarding the increased risk for firearms injury due to ownership provides a rational plan for personal preparedness.

As you can see, the analogy is quite valid regarding the role of the power company representative in promoting the agenda of his employer.

This is supposed to be the "High Road", but I find in almost every discussion, someone takes exception to some simple fact or statement, and then precedes to nitpick every point.
As far I recall, the purpose of this forum is to provide a higher level of discourse than that which is available at other sites. That purpose rightfully includes the careful analysis of the information which is being presented by the posters for accuracy. Preventing that from occurring under the pretense of trying to maintain a false consensus of information is not conducive to increasing the body of knowledge.
 
We are not amused- Thanks for the support. I am not better than anyone, and welcome the opportunity to gain knowledge myself.

Grey Mana- PM me.

Mortablunt- Not neccesarily. Again, the irony is that the armors containing laminates are generally *more* expensive, while woven Kevlar is still usually regarded as 2nd tier in the price scale. For 5K, you can get 95th percentile armor. You should be able to easily get a nice set of plates and soft armor for a 6th of that.
 
Thank you for shining some light on this topic. I have never done the research my self so this is very useful.
 
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