Vulnerable to simple body armored home invader?

[Zoogster]

With body armor the norm for military of many nations and increasingly common for citizens both legal and blackmarket, would you be able to resist a home invasion from a couple of criminals using some?

Many home invaders are known to yell "police" to gain a tactical advantage in the immediate most important moment of breaking into a home when the decision of the home owner is most critical. Compound this with even the most basic body armor being capable of resisting most handgun and buckshot loads and I question the standard defensive weapon ideology. While low velocity rounds that expand the best and go through the fewest walls are trumpeted as ideal for defense there very lack of penetration makes them useless for defense against organized home invasions.

Pistol ammo designed for defeating body armor is illegal, so that leaves you to using headshots against well armed individuals in fast paced dim light scenarios, or utilizing a long arm..otherwise your already defeated and this argument does not pertain to you.

Rifle or shotgun? The shotgun being trumpeted as very decisive for defense is also a very poor penetrator of body armor using shot. However one could theoreticly use both shot and slugs allowing for safer home defense in most situations yet allowing for defense against armor with a few specific slugs. Harder is better for penetration, pointy or sharp tips make better use of the muzzle energy in penetrating but also expand minimaly or not at all. Most hunting ammo even slugs are specificly designed with large hollow point cavities or soft lead to maximize expansion. Short range use of materials harder than lead would also achieve better penetration: Tungsten sharp and pointed sabots anyone?

Rifles tend to be placed out of reach for quick aquisition in a defensive situation and don't seem to have the safer less penetration option for use against unarmored opponents but do allow for the most effective defense in a home invasions situation with body armor using suspects as it allows both penetration of body armor as well as extreme shot precision in say a hostage situation where you want to hit a suspect and not a family member.

Obviously none of the above is ideal for use all the time, but with body armor increasingly employed by many I would advocate including the potential of having to defeat it in a realistic defense situation and welcome any thoughts on this.

 

[Zoogster]

FN Herstal Five-seveN is illegal in California and is under consideration of being banned in other areas as well.
though I can see the reshaping of other high velocity handgun ammunition into more pointed jacketed variants with a sleek profile as useful as well, but handloaded ammo is never good to have to use in self defense.

 

[Lonestar]

Many home invaders are known to yell "police" to gain a tactical advantage in the immediate most important moment of breaking into a home when the decision of the home owner is most critical. Compound this with even the most basic body armor being capable of resisting most handgun and buckshot loads and I question the standard defensive weapon ideology

Problem is what if they ARE REAL COPS???

 

[RyanM]

I'm starting to think that shotguns are just plain crappy all around, compared to rifles. Even against unarmored targets at close range, with slugs.

http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm

Leopards are way tougher than humans, but if an ordinary high-powered rifle works much better than a shotgun on them, it'll probably work much better on a human, too. With far less recoil to boot.

--------------------

Problem is what if they ARE REAL COPS???

If a bunch of heavily armed people dressed in black kick down my door at 3 in the morning, I don't care if they're shouting "police" or "fresh fish for sale!" They're violent home invaders with no business in my house, and will be dealt with accordingly. If they're real cops, it would be tragic any way you cut it, but that's what inevitably happens with no-knock warrants.

 

[RNB65]

Why does your home have a doors or windows that are vulnerable to being easily breached? Secure your castle from intrusion and you'll have time to decide what to do when death comes knocking.

 

[crofrog]

Many home invaders are known to yell "police" to gain a tactical advantage in the immediate most important moment of breaking into a home when the decision of the home owner is most critical.

Not saying it doesn't happen but do you have any documentation to back it up with.

and if you are at home there is no reason not to have your rifle. so unless they have plates you are fine.

If they do have body armor and don't go down with pistol rounds there is a reason failure drills are taught, fire a burst to the chest and a burst to face.

 

[sm]

Software not Hardware

Recall in training, one is to use strategy and tactics learned in training to prevent trouble , to evade trouble if it shows up , and if one has to fend off trouble, knowing how to do so. This means having to focus on what is exposed /most vulnerable to survive.

Mother Nature is a wonderful training tool if one should just observe the Predator -Prey relationship.

Armadillos have armor. How do Prey defend against Armidillos? How do Predators attack Armidillos?

 

[Geno]

Depends on what you're packing

If you're packing a Bushmaster or other center fire rifle, no problem. If you have a pistol, the armor does stop at certain point both top and bottom. But, more important, this possibility presents one of the additional rationale for practicing double-tap to the body and single-tap to the head. If the first 2 don't work, the 3rd one will. But, don't count on doing it without some serious practice.

Doc2005

 

[spencerhut]

Another Internet Expert

Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale in California

There are 11 matching records for Fabrique Nationale
The matching records list is sorted by Make
This list is valid for Monday, October 30, 2006

Edited - Model Gun Type Barrel Length Caliber Exp Date
FN 5.7 I.O.M. / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.8" 5.7x28mm 3/23/2007
FN 5.7 U.S.G. / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.8" 5.7x28 mm 4/12/2007

Look BEFORE you open your . . .

 

[nfl1990]

Problem is what if they ARE REAL COPS???

Considering that I have done nothing to justify a no knock raid in the middle of the night, why would I even think of that?

 

[Zoogster]

Excuse my mistake, I was mistaken about the legality of the FN Herstal Five-seveN. Thanks for the correction. As for:
crofrog Quote:
Many home invaders are known to yell "police" to gain a tactical advantage in the immediate most important moment of breaking into a home when the decision of the home owner is most critical.

Not saying it doesn't happen but do you have any documentation to back it up with.

I quickly refrenced a few, altough the majority of refrences are on large crime reports with unrelated crimes in addition so I did not include them.
http://www.hawaiipolice.com/archives/Archive2003/oct03/home_invasion_10-08-03.htm
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/Reports 2006/041306hominvtysonsupd2.htm
http://www.seacoastonline.com/2002news/2_5_sb2.htm
http://www.topix.net/content/kri/0475996624072907290321905280543566442700
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Oct/09/ln/ln37a.html
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/shared-blogs/ajc/copbriefs/entries/2006.04.26.62508.html
All refrence criminals posing as police doing home invasions.
http://www.aaichicago.org/main/SAFETYPage1.pdf refrences rapist/home invader wanted with reward for multiple counts
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a4cba1a0b09.htm

 

[Zoogster]

Not saying it doesn't happen but do you have any documentation to back it up with.

Many of the most famous and horrific crimes actualy involve people pretending to be police and go far back in history. From the St. Valentine's Day Massacre that made Al Capone famous in 1929 to many more modern examples. Especialy in other countries where they are more often much more convincing in uniforms, weapons, etc Iraq for example has fake police slaughtering people as a normal event. It is essentialy a force multiplier allowing a few men to handcuff and secure multiple people they may have had difficulty with before slaughtering them while they are defenseless. Instead of slow tedious individual assassinations entire familes or businesses can be dealt with at once after submiting to 'police'.
Consider that uniforms of standard 'swat' teams differ very little from gear anyone could purchase from any military surplus store and the average citizen could not tell the difference in the conditions they would likely be confronted with such dressed suspects(dark, with them demanding quick and immediate compliance while being heavily armed.)

 

[DogBonz]

SS109 penetrates body armor just fine...

Problem Solved. I'm a rifle guy.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Im sure 00 would hurt some

 

[sicario103]

Problem is what if they ARE REAL COPS???

I'm not sure about North America, but I can relate this to South America. There are alot of BG's that use this tactic and some go as far as dressing up as one and even "fixing" up their vehicles to look like a military or police cruiser to rob or kidnap. Unfortunately, some of those BG's do happen to be actual cops or military. Now, how do you know whether they are BG's or good guys? You don't. There are many cases where people have been fooled by BG's pretending to be one and other times where people have even died by the hands of real cops doing their job because they didn't want to take the chance. So personaly, I would deal with it with extreme caution and if necessary through the use of force (in South America that is).

Now, about body armor. Just because somone is wearing one does not mean he's indestructable or that he won't feel the shots (especially at close range). So multiple shots is the right way to take and if possible follow up with a head shot. And if you got a shotgun loaded with bucks.... go for the legs or arms (I said if you got a shotgun with buckshots because, personaly, I'm not fond at advising people to aim for the limbs). . But even if you don't go with head or limb shots, any shot at the body armor might not kill him but might stop him or deter him from continuing or at least slow him down for you to make your retreat or buy you time to take a better shot.

 

[Jeff White]

If someone can post a verified report that proves that home invaders wearing body armor have become a danger to the average citizen, a report that proves that this is more then a rare happening, I'll reopen this thread.

You all are venturing into fantasy land again. First off, a real home invasion, one where armed subjects break into an occupied home, with the object being robbery, rape or some other crime is pretty rare.

Most home invasions are done by associates of drug dealers who intend to rip off the dealers for the product and cash, by friends or aqquaintances of the victims who want to administer a beating or worse to the occupant for some real or perceived slight, or by robbers who have already been inside a home and know for certain that there are enough things of such value inside that they are willing to risk the severe penalties most states have in place for home invasion to get the stuff.

If you really are worried about defeating body armor, use a rifle. It takes hard armor, plastic, steel or ceramic plates to stop most anything moving at rifle velocities. Train to shoot failure drills with either your handgun or shotgun.

But in the real world, this isn't a threat that most people have to worry about. It does seem to be one of the internet gun forum's favorite fantasy threads though...

Jeff