Bolt action differences?

[Beav]

Can anyone give me the advantages and disadvantages of the more popular bolt actions? I know that the Remington 700 action is very popular but a lot of the time when I look up custom rifles it seems they replace a few things. I mean why is a Sako extractor better, whats wrong with the original...etc. What about the Winchester receivers, CZ, etc...

What is this push feed and control feed?

Also over at www.snipercentral.com they're offering rifles with the Montana Rifleman action. Is this action any good?

Thanks

 

[thatguy]

Most modern bolt guns are very similar and I think any name brand will serve you well. The biggest difference IMO is the control feed vs. push feed. The original 98 Mauser system used the CF where the cartridge rim is secured in the extractor as it strips from the magazine. The Rem 700 is typical PF where the round is simply pushed ahead of the bolt face. Some "experts" extoll the need for CF on a rifle used for dangerous game but I doubt that it's really all that more reliable than the PF system.

Being a geezer, I tend to prefer old stuff so I like the M98 system and most of my bolt guns are Mausers or copies. I have owned some PF rifles and never had any complaints.

Here's my idea of a proper rifle:

 

[dakotasin]

push feed- the cartridge is pushed into the action (usually from the mag) w/ the bolt.
controlled feed- the extractor (claw) snaps over the rim of the cartridge on the way in to the action. the cartridge is tied to the bolt.

push feeds are more accurate.

all other differences between crf and pf boil down to individual preferences. my own preference is for remington 700's, and by definition that is a preference for push feeds.

sako extractors on a 700... generally this is done when chambering for a real fat cartridge (big wby magnums, etc) where there won't be enough left on the remington bolt for its extractor. w/ remingtons line up of rum's, there is no advantage to this conversion, and in fact, should be avoided.

the montana rifleman actions (mrc) have a pretty good rep, though they are heavy, and are controlled feed. they would be a decent platform to start building a custom on.

to build a custom, first determine if you like push feeds or controlled feeds, and go from there.

 

[Ash]

If you look at the bolt head for a Remington 700, modern post 64 style 70, Savage 110, Weatherby Vanguard/Howa 1500, Mossberg 100ATR, they are all virtually the same. Two opposing locking lugs, receased, push feed with a blunger ejector and a small extractor. Truly, there is very little difference. Indeed, the recievers, barrels, and the like are very similar. The real difference comes in trigger and safety designs and none of them are compatible with each other to be true. But in the final analysis, they are all about the same. Once you get out of Wal-Mart, things change a lot. Winchester 70 Classic, Weatherby Mk V, etc start showing great variety in design.

Ash

 

[Ash]

The Push-feed Mosin-Nagant is older than the whipper-snapper M98 Mauser design .

Commerically, though, controlled-feed actions are certainly older.

Ash

 

[ocabj]

The advantage of the push feed is that you can drop in a round without feeding into the magazine and chamber it. Makes benchrest shooting or single round shooting a lot easier and faster.

The advantage of the control feed is that you can't jam up the rifle by chambering a round while another one is still (or part way) in the chamber. If you have a push feed, try loading two dummy rounds (snap caps or some other inert round to be safe) into the magwell. Push the bolt forward but don't turn the bolt, thereby taking the top round off the mag and feeding it into the chamber. Now try pulling the bolt back to chamber the second round. Notice how the first round is still in the chamber?

This won't happen with a control feed because the rim is constantly held by the extractor claw.

Granted, this form of jam will rarely happen, but I can see how in a high stress situation where it could happen. Or maybe the operator could just be lax in operating the rifle and a jam like this will happen.

As far as accuracy goes, I don't think there's a difference between the feed types.

 

[ocabj]

BTW: You *can* single load a control feed without putting the cartridge into the magazine, but you're pretty much bending the extractor claw over the rim when you close the bolt. I'm not sure what damage that does to the extractor.

 

[Sharps Shooter]

I'm with what "thatguy" said. Push feeds are said to be more accurate, though I'm not good enough to take advantage of that gain in accuracy if it really does exist - especially when it comes to hunting. And controlled feeds are said to be more reliable, therefore more preferable, for dangerous game. Could be, and if I'm ever charged by an angry Cape Buffalo here in Idaho I might appreciate the supposed reliability of a controlled feed rifle.

That said, I like my pre-64 Winchester Model 70. Like the newer Winchester Model 70 "Classics," which I feel are just as good if not better, my pre-64 is controlled feed, has a Mauser type claw extractor, a 3 position safety, and it's bolt has two large locking-lugs. Besides, my Model 70 just "feels good" when it comes up to my shoulder.

I'm sure someone else can extoll the virtues of a Remington, a Ruger, a Weatherby, a Sako, or whatever. But I drive a Ford too, while alot of people like Chevys. I don't believe there are any real great advantages to any of the reputable bolt rifles. There are enough imagined advantages however to provoke arguments.

 

[nico]

Another difference is that with a push feed, the ejector is spring loaded and hits the brass the same every time you open the action. With a controlled feed, the ejector is fixed and how hard the case is ejected depends on how hard you cycle the action. I like this better because I don't have to worry about my brass flying all over the place at the range but it'll positively eject a case in when i'm trying to reload quickly. The extractor on a push feed action is also said to be a weak spot because of this.

Like someone else said, you would also want to consider the safety. My Ruger M77 and the Model 70 have similar 3 position safeties with safe/ load-unload/ and fire. The middle position blocks the trigger while allowing the bolt to open for loading/unloading one round at a time. Remington, Savage, and Weatherby don't have this feature afaik.

Another feature you might want to look for is a hinged floorplate in the magazine. It allows you to unload the magazine all at once, which comes in handy.

 

[SpaceCowboy]

Crontroled round feeding:
simply that the round, when being fed into the chamber, is in contact with two or more surfaces at any one time. Very reliable system. What does this mean? Should the inclination arise you could load the firearm upside down. The reliability factor is a plus for dangerous game hunting.

Sako extractors:
Placed on Remington models, specifically older models like the 721, 722, etc., becuase you can't find extractors for them anymore. Remember remington used two to three types of extractors for each series except the 700 which has nine. The sako extractor is simply a better extractor than the stamped and riveted (or non-riveted depending on model) that remington used. It should cost you fifteen to twenty dollars to have that done to your gun.

The Winchester mod. 70 pre - 64.
Hand fited gun with hand fited parts, this is also a failing when it comes to having it serviced. But being hand made and fitted it is one of the finest rifles you can buy. It also has a one piece bolt which is very nice if you should (God forbid) have a kaboom - the bolt handle becomes a safety lug. Two piece firing pin like the Springfield 03. Cone breech.

The Winchester mod. 70 post - 64
Anti binding key way where the bolt rides a groove in the receiver. Prevents the bolt from binding when chambering a round. They went to a "c" clip retained striker on the firing pin. Went to a flat breech.

The "new" mod 70 pre 64.
Kept the best of the pre and post 64's. But remember the parts are not interchangeable.

Remington 700.
Great gun with two very bad problems. 1: the safety. Good design - separating and blocking safety. Very poor execution. Check your safety by cocking the gun, placing it on safe, pull the trigger four or five times, take the safety off. It SHOULD not discharge. Remington has been sued for this innumerable times.
2: the extractor. It could be a riveted extractor or it could be a rivetless extractor. But either way they are not the best and remington has been working on their extractor issues for decades. If and when it breaks, get a sako extractor conversion. They're cheap and work well.

Hope this helps. I'd tell you more but I left my notes at school. I know I forgot certain things. But I'll grab my notes tomorrow and amend my post.

 

[dakotasin]

the remington safety on current production guns is the usual 2-pos safety, except that when in the safe position, the bolt can be cycled. for some, this is a desireable feature. for some, this is a non-issue, and still others do not like this feature.

i don't use a safety, so it is a non-issue to me... i don't trust them, regardless of the make/model of the rifle (i'm an empty-chamber hunter).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

BTW: You *can* single load a control feed without putting the cartridge into the magazine, but you're pretty much bending the extractor claw over the rim when you close the bolt. I'm not sure what damage that does to the extractor.

Actually, single loading from the magazine will do no harm at all -- the extractor doesn't know if there's one round in the magazine or five!

Dropping a cartridge into the chamber of SOME claw-extractor rifles and closing the bold may spring the extractor or jam the case badly. Exceptions to that are the '03 Springfield (which was designed with a magazine cut-off so it could be used as a single loader) and the pre-'64 Winchester, which copies the '03 in that respect.

 

[greg531mi]

Doesn't the Weatherby Mark 5 have 9 lugs? I guess they are the oddball out there.....

I heard they tend to jam up with one grain of sand...... Is that true?

 

[win71]

Colt Sauer

Or JP Sauer, is another odd one. It's a non rotating bolt. The bolt handle rotates but the bolt doesn't. Rotating the bolt handle down pops out two locking lugs, one on each side of the bolt. It is one of the smoothest actions made. Its strong, I have one in 375 H&H and a guy I shoot with has one in 458 win. mag.
Ron

 

[BusMaster007]

Don't forget Winchester's new CONTROLLED-ROUND-PUSH-FEED used to make sure the SuperShort Magnum ammo gets into the chamber!

 

[Beav]

Ok so whats the deal with the Dakota 76 action? I see them in my Brownells catalog for like $1800!

 

[dakotasin]

they are semi-custom mauser-style (crf) rifles. beautiful guns, perfectly executed, and at $1800 (if that is a complete rifle) is actually pretty cheap. if it is just the action, then what you'd be buying (i think) is a nesika action (benchrest quality)...

 

[rbernie]

Dropping a cartridge into the chamber of SOME claw-extractor rifles and closing the bold may spring the extractor or jam the case badly. Exceptions to that are the '03 Springfield (which was designed with a magazine cut-off so it could be used as a single loader) and the pre-'64 Winchester, which copies the '03 in that respect.

It's actually not hard to convert any Mauser to feed single rounds dropped into the chamber. You just have to file/mill/grind a small angle into the lip of the extractor such that the extractor can ride up the rim of the cartridge.

 

[hps1]

push feeds are more accurate.

Perhaps, but any actual difference would only benefit a benchrest shooter IMHO. The 700 Rem action does have slightly more locking lug contact than the pre-64 Win. which may give it a slight accuracy advantage, but the average shooter will never notice the difference.

This 3" spotter reveals 14 consecutive shots fired from pre 64 Win. using iron sights from prone position at 600 yards; not too bad for a CRF action.

The middle position blocks the trigger while allowing the bolt to open for loading/unloading one round at a time. Remington, Savage, and Weatherby don't have this feature afaik.

Savage does have the 3 position safety.

Remington 700 Great gun with two very bad problems. 1: the safety. Good design - separating and blocking safety. Very poor execution. Check your safety by cocking the gun, placing it on safe, pull the trigger four or five times, take the safety off. It SHOULD not discharge. Remington has been sued for this innumerable times.

This problem resulted in a recall by Rem. Rifles returned to factory will be altered so the bolt is not locked when rifle on safe. Many of the "fire on release of safety" events resulted as the shooter was attempting to unload his/her rifle (which could not be done w/o slipping it off safe). While this alteration will not prevent the "FORS", it does offer the shooter the opportunity to at least unload the rifle without slipping it off safe. Personally, I prefer the Mod. 70 safety which blocks the firing pin, not the sear.

As has been stated, it is best (safer) not to trust any of the mechanical safeties as any mechanical device can fail.

One highly touted advantage of the push feed action, when first introduced, was the fact that the cartridge case head is 100 % enclosed in the rifle chamber by the bolt face as opposed to a portion of the case head not being supported where the extractor slot is milled in the barrels of CRF rifles. While this is a true claim, barring barrel obstructions or severe overloads, a case failure is quite unlikely with modern rifles/ammunition.

Savage may not receive any awards for beauty, but they have a reputation for excellent accuracy out of the box. They offer both push feed and CRF in their current lines. The pre-accutrigger models left something to be desired in trigger pull area, but can be tuned up by a competent gunsmith; the accutriggers offered on current models take a bit of getting used to, but offer user adjustable trigger which can be set for a very light pull.

Regards,
hps