LeibstandarteAdH
Member
There is some good reading that some of the excerpts in this post also seem to be similarly sourced from at: http://www.taskforceomegainc.org/t014.html
Booby trapped surplus rifle ammo?
- Thread starter Harpo
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strangelittleman
Member
Yes, The "spiking" of all sorts of ammo, from small arms to arty shells has been done by everyone from Special Forces in many conflicts to eastern European slave laborers working in Nazi factories during WW2.
However, I don't think it's very likely that it would be encountered by any of us.
Having said that, I certainly do not trust some of the ammo coming in from some foreign sources due to it's questionable QC ( purposeful shoddy QC??) who knows? But I'm not buying any from UAE, China, Russia, Serbia, Venezuela.....Only American, British, Czech, Italian, German for me.
However, I don't think it's very likely that it would be encountered by any of us.
Having said that, I certainly do not trust some of the ammo coming in from some foreign sources due to it's questionable QC ( purposeful shoddy QC??) who knows? But I'm not buying any from UAE, China, Russia, Serbia, Venezuela.....Only American, British, Czech, Italian, German for me.
Ash
Member
"These rounds were produced to look exactly like standard issue, and there was probably very few people who knew their actual content"
Except the ammo would have been loose and exposed to the elements. As a result, I'm pretty sure you would be able to tell it from stuff sealed in a spam-can.
Ash
Except the ammo would have been loose and exposed to the elements. As a result, I'm pretty sure you would be able to tell it from stuff sealed in a spam-can.
Ash
Country Boy
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Operation Eldest Son
SOG would carry a few loose rounds, oftentimes putting only one "Eldest Son" round in the middle of an AK mag left laying around after a battle. Supposedly the VC wouldn't be suspicious of a full magazine. When the round was fired the AK bolt would blow back into the operator's head. The US propaganda machine put out fake messages stating that the ammunition problems were being fixed, and new ammo was being sent down the trail. Not much comfort to the enemy who had old ammunition with no resupply anytime in the near future. I've read it in several books.
Here are a few links that might help (I only did a quick search).
http://www.sogknives.com/about/MACV/
http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1208967928/0
http://books.google.com/books?id=JY...2ipGZJxywgO5hsyOSgQv40iQU&hl=en#PRA2-PA188,M1
http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Secret-Americas-Commandos-Vietnam/dp/0451195086 - I'd highly recommend if you are at all interested in SF history.
SOG would carry a few loose rounds, oftentimes putting only one "Eldest Son" round in the middle of an AK mag left laying around after a battle. Supposedly the VC wouldn't be suspicious of a full magazine. When the round was fired the AK bolt would blow back into the operator's head. The US propaganda machine put out fake messages stating that the ammunition problems were being fixed, and new ammo was being sent down the trail. Not much comfort to the enemy who had old ammunition with no resupply anytime in the near future. I've read it in several books.
Here are a few links that might help (I only did a quick search).
http://www.sogknives.com/about/MACV/
http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1208967928/0
http://books.google.com/books?id=JY...2ipGZJxywgO5hsyOSgQv40iQU&hl=en#PRA2-PA188,M1
http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Secret-Americas-Commandos-Vietnam/dp/0451195086 - I'd highly recommend if you are at all interested in SF history.
Gator
Member
I just read an article about "Eldest Son", but I sure can't remember where I saw it. SOG got real good at opening spam cans of enemy ammo, putting in a few doctored rounds, then resealing the spam cans. There were pics of a couple blown AKs and of the SOG manual.
Gator
Member
My memory ain't what it used to be!
wally
Member
Personally, I'd worry a lot more about getting killed in a car crash on my way to the range, than about getting one of these booby trapped rounds!
--wally.
--wally.
Halo
Member
Wasn't there an Israeli connection to the operations in Vietnam? Something like Israel supplying the CIA with a bunch of AK ammo that they had "acquired" from the Egyptians and Syrians, which became the feedstock for sabotage operations in Vietnam?
dfariswheel
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There is a risk if you pick up loose ammo at the range.
A few years ago out West, there was a possibility someone was leaving booby trapped ammo at ranges.
For that reason, plus the chances of getting someone's defective reloads, if you ever find any ammo laying around a range, throw it away somewhere where it won't be fired by the unwary.
I pitch it in the creek or at a near by landfill.
A few years ago out West, there was a possibility someone was leaving booby trapped ammo at ranges.
For that reason, plus the chances of getting someone's defective reloads, if you ever find any ammo laying around a range, throw it away somewhere where it won't be fired by the unwary.
I pitch it in the creek or at a near by landfill.
The current American Rifleman has an article about the program to booby trap enemy ammo in Vietnam.
They also booby trapped enemy mortar rounds, which caused a few enemy mortars to explode, killing the crew.
The odds of running across booby trapped ammo in the mil-surp channels seem very remote though. Compared to the massive amounts of ammo produced, the small amounts that were messed with are so insignificant, that the odds are against it. That and how much ammo did Vietnam sell on the open market anyway?
The odds of getting bad ammo due to improper storage are much greater, yet no one seems to worry about that much.
They also booby trapped enemy mortar rounds, which caused a few enemy mortars to explode, killing the crew.
The odds of running across booby trapped ammo in the mil-surp channels seem very remote though. Compared to the massive amounts of ammo produced, the small amounts that were messed with are so insignificant, that the odds are against it. That and how much ammo did Vietnam sell on the open market anyway?
The odds of getting bad ammo due to improper storage are much greater, yet no one seems to worry about that much.
Float Pilot
Member
Has anyone seen the widely circulated video of a middle-eastern type firing a mortor while the camera man gets him to yell Allah Akbar. About round number 3 or 4 there is an explosion which no doubt killed the camera man along with the carpet flying mortar gunner. Supposedly the camera was discovered later.
I have always wondered if the explosion was the result of a little present that the CIA left, or just accurate return fire.
I have always wondered if the explosion was the result of a little present that the CIA left, or just accurate return fire.
Floppy_D
Member In Memoriam
One of my SEAL buddies said that they would spin 40mm grenades and stop them rapidly, and leave them for the enemy.
As has been posted before, the likely hood of any sabotaged ammo being found amongst the mil-surp on the market is impossibly slim.
The mil-surp ammo is ammo that the big military (not the insurgents, etc) has had sitting around in warehouses and supply depots and has been accounted for during it's lifetime. Any military that was involved in "spiking" ammo would certainly not allow any battlefield ammo back into the supply chain, for obvious safety reasons.
You are more likely to have some poorly made/low quality control rounds that might "kaboom" on you because of poor manufacturing and quality control, than you finding a "spiked" round amongst those that came out of a national military supply depot that has since been surplused out.
That said, WW2 era rounds, locally manufactured in Axis occupied areas should be looked at as potentially suspect, due to the possibility of sabotage at the manufacturing source.
The mil-surp ammo is ammo that the big military (not the insurgents, etc) has had sitting around in warehouses and supply depots and has been accounted for during it's lifetime. Any military that was involved in "spiking" ammo would certainly not allow any battlefield ammo back into the supply chain, for obvious safety reasons.
You are more likely to have some poorly made/low quality control rounds that might "kaboom" on you because of poor manufacturing and quality control, than you finding a "spiked" round amongst those that came out of a national military supply depot that has since been surplused out.
That said, WW2 era rounds, locally manufactured in Axis occupied areas should be looked at as potentially suspect, due to the possibility of sabotage at the manufacturing source.
My father used to tell me stories about Vietnam where the Viet Cong was doing this to American ammo and leaving it around the bases. He said you never could tell who the enemy was, they all looked the same without the uniforms on.
He told me stories about how a few times they were required to turn in all their ammo and issued replacement ammo because booby trapped ammo was either found or had claimed a target. Most of the time it was done to linked ammo, but he also said it happened to some mortar rounds and ammo on stripper clips. There was even one time they had a Cobra helicopter badly damaged because of one going through the chain gun in the nose (not sure the caliber it uses)
He has a couple of pictures on his wall of the base he was stationed at, they are pictures of the ammo dump exploding and the entire base was lit up like daytime. It went on long enough for him to get a camera, climb up on the roof and take an entire roll of film worth of pictures (while taking cover behind a structure on the roof). The following investigation found that the cause came from a device planted on site, not an incoming round.
The thing about allowing warfare practices like this is the same as allowing land-mines to be used: they don't always just kill the enemy and they are round for long after the war is over for inoccent civilians to discover.
He told me stories about how a few times they were required to turn in all their ammo and issued replacement ammo because booby trapped ammo was either found or had claimed a target. Most of the time it was done to linked ammo, but he also said it happened to some mortar rounds and ammo on stripper clips. There was even one time they had a Cobra helicopter badly damaged because of one going through the chain gun in the nose (not sure the caliber it uses)
He has a couple of pictures on his wall of the base he was stationed at, they are pictures of the ammo dump exploding and the entire base was lit up like daytime. It went on long enough for him to get a camera, climb up on the roof and take an entire roll of film worth of pictures (while taking cover behind a structure on the roof). The following investigation found that the cause came from a device planted on site, not an incoming round.
The thing about allowing warfare practices like this is the same as allowing land-mines to be used: they don't always just kill the enemy and they are round for long after the war is over for inoccent civilians to discover.
myrockfight
Member
I also read a few books about SOG (Study and Observation Group) operators concerning opportunites while running "Bright Light", inserting these rounds in the weapon's caches that were available. IIRC, it became so successful that the North Vietnamese were questioning, and at one point halting (IIRC), the supply/manufacturing/transportation of ammo from the other Reds. That is unless the N. Vietnamese reports on the subject was disinformation disseminated after they figured out what was going on.
The Psy-Ops run by our special forces were wildly successful in some cases. However, it was very disheartening to read about how there were S. Vietnamese traders giving direct information to N. Vietnamese Intelligence resulting in the deaths of an awful lot of dead Americans. As disturbing as that was, it was much, much, more so to hear how U.S. officers wouldn't do anything about it because they didn't want to damage their tenous relationship with the S. Vietnamese military officers/community.
So even though the CIA drops in N. Vietnam were compromised, and American officers running the show were aware, CIA operators still had to be dropped behind enemy lines wihle their COs knew it. One of the lower COs worked up a plan to give the Vietnamese a bunch of BS about fake drop zones so they could get back in business.
Reading about that incident/scenario absolutely quashed my thoughts of going into the military. Such a shame those men had to die for that reason. Disgraceful.
The Psy-Ops run by our special forces were wildly successful in some cases. However, it was very disheartening to read about how there were S. Vietnamese traders giving direct information to N. Vietnamese Intelligence resulting in the deaths of an awful lot of dead Americans. As disturbing as that was, it was much, much, more so to hear how U.S. officers wouldn't do anything about it because they didn't want to damage their tenous relationship with the S. Vietnamese military officers/community.
So even though the CIA drops in N. Vietnam were compromised, and American officers running the show were aware, CIA operators still had to be dropped behind enemy lines wihle their COs knew it. One of the lower COs worked up a plan to give the Vietnamese a bunch of BS about fake drop zones so they could get back in business.
Reading about that incident/scenario absolutely quashed my thoughts of going into the military. Such a shame those men had to die for that reason. Disgraceful.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Post#42 30 Apr 2008
Post#43 8 Mar 2010
Another undead thread re-animated. BUT, a perrenial subject, maybe deserving a sticky (or at least a spell-check on "Perrenial").
That military ammo has been left booby-trapped on the battlefield to injure or kill the enemy who might use it, is a matter of fact. The odds of deliberately boobytrapped ammo ending up in the military-suplus market (what with the papertrail required on military surplus) is extremely remote. Boobytrapped ammo is usually left behind on withdrawal as "abandoned" property: while likely to be picked up and used on the battlefield, it is unlikely to enter the military supply system and end up in some warehouse.
Ammo abandoned at the firing range:
Oh boy. We have a box for disposal of unwanted ammo at our range and if really bored I will go through the box to see what I can learn (a lot is bulk pack .22 lr with one or more firing pin strikes, a lot of work for little lead if you are pulling bullets for recycle; my son prefers CCI Minimags for a good reason: premium .22 ammo brands are seldomn in the disposal box). One time I found a box of .223 handloads and checking them and pulling some of the the bullets showed me the ammo has been abandoned to be destroyed for good reason: poor brass (1/3 had split necks), inconsistent powder, bad crimps, recycled bullets that had been pulled with pliers, etc. Occassionally someone will abandon, say, a box of .357 Maximum accidentally purchased for a .357 Magnum, or half a carton of .22 Shorts purchased for a .22 Long Rifle-only semi-auto. Usually though, if a user abandons ammo at a range there is a good reason that they--and you--should not want to keep or use the ammo, except as lead or brass for recycling. And if its not in the disposal box, I assume the owner just forgot and may return to retrieve it, so I leave it lie.
Post#43 8 Mar 2010
Another undead thread re-animated. BUT, a perrenial subject, maybe deserving a sticky (or at least a spell-check on "Perrenial").
That military ammo has been left booby-trapped on the battlefield to injure or kill the enemy who might use it, is a matter of fact. The odds of deliberately boobytrapped ammo ending up in the military-suplus market (what with the papertrail required on military surplus) is extremely remote. Boobytrapped ammo is usually left behind on withdrawal as "abandoned" property: while likely to be picked up and used on the battlefield, it is unlikely to enter the military supply system and end up in some warehouse.
Ammo abandoned at the firing range:
Oh boy. We have a box for disposal of unwanted ammo at our range and if really bored I will go through the box to see what I can learn (a lot is bulk pack .22 lr with one or more firing pin strikes, a lot of work for little lead if you are pulling bullets for recycle; my son prefers CCI Minimags for a good reason: premium .22 ammo brands are seldomn in the disposal box). One time I found a box of .223 handloads and checking them and pulling some of the the bullets showed me the ammo has been abandoned to be destroyed for good reason: poor brass (1/3 had split necks), inconsistent powder, bad crimps, recycled bullets that had been pulled with pliers, etc. Occassionally someone will abandon, say, a box of .357 Maximum accidentally purchased for a .357 Magnum, or half a carton of .22 Shorts purchased for a .22 Long Rifle-only semi-auto. Usually though, if a user abandons ammo at a range there is a good reason that they--and you--should not want to keep or use the ammo, except as lead or brass for recycling. And if its not in the disposal box, I assume the owner just forgot and may return to retrieve it, so I leave it lie.
I wouldn't worry about surplus ammunition from say, Eastern Europe. We're not importing ammo from China or VN, either.
I'd worry about rounds left at ranges, other reloader's ammunition (I don't shoot other people's hobby reloads and neither should you), etc. It's also a good idea to keep an eye on the gunboards because occasionally a manufacture will issue a recall for ammunition, and you'll likely see the notice posted at shooting forums and websites.
The last ammunition recall I can remember was Winchester hunting ammunition. I remember the notices at Walmart and I believe here at THR.
I'd worry about rounds left at ranges, other reloader's ammunition (I don't shoot other people's hobby reloads and neither should you), etc. It's also a good idea to keep an eye on the gunboards because occasionally a manufacture will issue a recall for ammunition, and you'll likely see the notice posted at shooting forums and websites.
The last ammunition recall I can remember was Winchester hunting ammunition. I remember the notices at Walmart and I believe here at THR.
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