RSVP2RIP
Member
I heard you could use a fishing sinker to do this but what about drilling a hole in a ball thats bigger. Suppose I could use a .570 ball to slug a .54 rifle? Anyone try this?
Bore slugging
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I would think that if you drilled a hole in a ball and tried to ram it through the bore you might end up with the rod stuck in the ball, and the whole thing stuck in the barrel. The advantage of using a correctly sized ball is that very little of the ball's surface is swaged and it is therefore relatively easy to drive it.
Dixie Gun Works (www.dixiegunworks.com) will sell you a small quantity of cast balls in almost any size you can think of. This offers a simple and economical solution to your problem.
Dixie Gun Works (www.dixiegunworks.com) will sell you a small quantity of cast balls in almost any size you can think of. This offers a simple and economical solution to your problem.
RSVP2RIP
Member
The method I heard of was using an egg shaped fishing sinker, the hole giving the lead somewhere to dislace to. Before you hammer it in you take a 6" x 1/2" piece of brass rod and put it down bore, this acts like a slide hammer to drive the ball out. This wouldn't work? It sure sounds like a great idea.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
It would sure be an interesting bore obstruction if you can't get it out with the brass "slide hammer"!
Doesn't the breach-plug come out?
If so, I'd do it that way!
rc
Doesn't the breach-plug come out?
If so, I'd do it that way!
rc
RSVP2RIP
Member
I guess the breech comes off but I don't want to take it off in case I can't get it to line up again. I've just got a case of the winter itch and rather than go and shoot the thing I was looking for a quick and dirty way of getting a good ball fit. The Hornady .530 balls I got are oblong runing .529 in one dirsction to .535 in another. One way they will slide into the muzzle the other they just sit on top and I'd have to engrave the ball to get it to fit. The barrel is an Oregon Barrel Co. so I can't imagine the bore diameter being off that much from "ideal" .54 caliber. I did a search for slugging and this was the result I got. I thought it sounded pretty good but I'd have to try somthing first to figure out how big a dummy I am.
Chawbaccer
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Put a pinch of powder down the bore, then cover with thick cotton so it won't get oily and then drive a greased ball down to the breech. I use a regular ball that has been upset a bit with a hammer. Fire the ball into some thick blankets or even a barrel of water for recovery.
If you ask first you're not a dummy...
I was a bit confused as to what you had - a single-shot rifle or pistol, or a revolver.
Anyway, to slug the barrel you have to push the slug (ball or whatever) all of the way through the bore, and this requires that the breechplug (if there is one) be unscrewed first. Unscrewing the breechplug may require a special wrench; otherwise you can mess up the tang.
The barrel or gun maker should be able to supply you with the groove and land diameters. The ball should just slide down the bore, and the patch thickness should be the same as the groove depth. It also sounds like you could use some better quality balls, although if the sprue cut-off is the problem, seat the ball with that little flat forward. You may have to experiment a bit with different ball diameters and patch thickness and material.
Start by going to (www.dixiegunworks.com) and order a copy of their catalog. It’s over 700 pages filled guns, parts, accessories and supplies – as well as lots of good now-to-do-it information. Best of all, this “must have” book only costs $5.00. A better deal you’ll never find.
Voodoochile
Member
Chawbaccer said:
I sortof done that very thing once.
Thought since I had predrilled a Lee R.E.A.L. bullet that it'd be easy to slug the barrel of my CVA Bobcat & just pull the bullet with the rod.
NOT
!@#$%&* Ramrod broke!
Took the nipple out & sifted as much FFFG into the opening that I can squeze in there, replaced the nipple & took her out back & fired it off into a bucket of water.
Needless to say I won't be sluuging a bore without having a few grains of FFFG in there first, just in case.
RSVP2RIP
Member
As far as the sprue is concerned, Hornady balls are cold swaged from lead wire and not cast. I thought that they would be better, not so out of round. Some .570 balls I have of theirs go .570-.571. This was what I was expecting in quallity when I got the .430 stuff. As far as the barrel, I don't know who built the gun except that it is a .54 Oregon barrel 1-66", 1" octogon. Groove depth looks (hard to measure as it is 7 grooves) about .012". Oregon barrels are made to order from what I understand for the most part.
Boy, you guys sure make something simple and easy into something hard and complicated.
Sorry, Old Fuff, but, with respect, I disagree that one has to drive the slug completely through the barrel and pull the breech plug.
Brownell's sells a product name Cerrosafe (link to Cerrosafe page at Brownell's). It melts at 160 degrees f, so put some water in a saucepan and bring it to a low boil; cut off some Cerrosafe with a hacksaw and put it in another pot, set that pot in the boiling water and let it melt. While it's melting, wad up some paper towel to make a plug for the bore; pierce the plug with a long piece of stiff wire and put a 'J' hook on the end. Pull the wire back through so that the hook is pulled back into the plug. Put the plug in the barrel, pushing it down about 4 inches. When the Cerrosafe is melted, pour it in the bore; about two or two and a half inches is all you need. Let it cool. Cerrosafe will expand to fill the bore as a liquid, and then shrink when cooling to allow you to pull the plug from the barrel; after 60 minutes it expands back to exactly the bore dimensions so you can easily measure it. It's resusable, so a half pound brick lasts forever.
Thousands of people have been using Cerrosafe for many years in determining muzzleloader bore dimensions. It's safe, easy and cheap. And no need to pull the breech plug.
RSVP2RIP
Member
I didn't even think about Cerrosafe. Great suggestion.
FredT
Member
I like the idea of the short brass rod in the bore first then tap in a pinched over sized ball only an inch or less. Once the ball is in it will tell you all you need to know. The heavy brass rod will tap it right back out.
English Bob
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Cerrosafe would be what I'd suggest, it's very easy to use and is probably more accurate than hammering lead through.
Plus....you can use it for chamber casts too.
Plus....you can use it for chamber casts too.
Macmac
Member
Don't go pulling breech plugs, as they will not line up ever again!
When a BP barrel is breeched the plug is installed which stretches the threads in the barrel and on the plug. This alone is enough to insure the flats will never again line up.
If you turn in the breech plug to just line up it will be loose, and if you torque it properly the flats will be off and no longer mate evenly ever again.
I understand these balls are swaged and that there is nio sprue, and Old Fuff is right that a ball with a sprue is loaded forward, but 'forward' is not clear. His forward is lookin in yer eye, or face up and at you.
When loading a ball with a sprue you want that sprue as centered as you can make it, and the last you see of that ball before it gets rammed.
Cerrosafe is a newer modern method, and firing a ball into water, or by some other means of collecting it is the old method, so long as the charge is small the ball should not be distorted.
Usually a round ball is under bore size, and you can have serveral sizes of round ball each more undersized than the next, and the difference made up with patching thickness which is respectively thicker. Which makes slugging a BP rifle fairly moot.
I use .380, .385, .390, and .395 in my .40, and just varry patching.
If I wanted to I could use .36 cal round ball as well.
This is about round ball and not slugs for a Chunk Gun, or maxi ball, Minie' ball and anything else but round ball.
The patch is the critical factor, and it must survive being fired. There are many natural fibers and materials that can survive being fired. Pure linen, cotton, is the most used and the most common, leather and silk come next.
In my 40 with that .395 ball there is no leather and or cotton thin enough, but silk is.
Pulling a ball is a poor option, and can cause night mares.
The modern way is to blow the ball out with a CO2 cartridge, which will unload a charged ball safely.
The next best way is the old way where even if there is no charge the shotter trickels powder into the touch hole/ nipple and fires this light charge down and closer to his feet, to be certain the ball did come out!
When a BP barrel is breeched the plug is installed which stretches the threads in the barrel and on the plug. This alone is enough to insure the flats will never again line up.
If you turn in the breech plug to just line up it will be loose, and if you torque it properly the flats will be off and no longer mate evenly ever again.
I understand these balls are swaged and that there is nio sprue, and Old Fuff is right that a ball with a sprue is loaded forward, but 'forward' is not clear. His forward is lookin in yer eye, or face up and at you.
When loading a ball with a sprue you want that sprue as centered as you can make it, and the last you see of that ball before it gets rammed.
Cerrosafe is a newer modern method, and firing a ball into water, or by some other means of collecting it is the old method, so long as the charge is small the ball should not be distorted.
Usually a round ball is under bore size, and you can have serveral sizes of round ball each more undersized than the next, and the difference made up with patching thickness which is respectively thicker. Which makes slugging a BP rifle fairly moot.
I use .380, .385, .390, and .395 in my .40, and just varry patching.
If I wanted to I could use .36 cal round ball as well.
This is about round ball and not slugs for a Chunk Gun, or maxi ball, Minie' ball and anything else but round ball.
The patch is the critical factor, and it must survive being fired. There are many natural fibers and materials that can survive being fired. Pure linen, cotton, is the most used and the most common, leather and silk come next.
In my 40 with that .395 ball there is no leather and or cotton thin enough, but silk is.
Pulling a ball is a poor option, and can cause night mares.
The modern way is to blow the ball out with a CO2 cartridge, which will unload a charged ball safely.
The next best way is the old way where even if there is no charge the shotter trickels powder into the touch hole/ nipple and fires this light charge down and closer to his feet, to be certain the ball did come out!
RSVP2RIP
Member
What I was trying to accompish was to order shot that was close to bore size and determine what patch would be somewhat ideal. I tried to see if a ".530" ball would press fit into the bore and would not. The balls that I had were out of round a bit. After I Cero'ed the bore it came out to be .536" bore with .012" grooves. So I then can get a .535 mould as now I know they won't be too big with .010 or even .015 patching. This will allow me to hit the ground running this spring. Thanks for the suggestions.
Macmac
Member
The difference is 0.001" right?
0.536
-.535
--------
0.001" and just how are you going to get 0.010 x 2 to load?
If you go with that mold you will be in silk for patching and i do, but you have to find the silk in sally annes'
Maybe there is a typo, but if you can't press fit a .530 ball you are not going to load to .535 ball with out a BFH.... In which case i would find the next common size ball down.
I run a 0.620 smooth bore shooting a .600 ball with .010 patching and that is plenty snug, but I can ram it ok. If you ask me your load is way to tight.
0.536
-.535
--------
0.001" and just how are you going to get 0.010 x 2 to load?
If you go with that mold you will be in silk for patching and i do, but you have to find the silk in sally annes'
Maybe there is a typo, but if you can't press fit a .530 ball you are not going to load to .535 ball with out a BFH.... In which case i would find the next common size ball down.
I run a 0.620 smooth bore shooting a .600 ball with .010 patching and that is plenty snug, but I can ram it ok. If you ask me your load is way to tight.
RSVP2RIP
Member
Maybe thats why I get cut patches on my .58? The bore difference is the same and the most accurate load is a .575 ball with .010 patches. The groove depth is .014 on that one. The patches look like hell but they group real good. It is a tight load but going with a .570 ball adds an inch to the group at 50 yards. Am I saying the wrong thing, bore diameter is not the same as groove diameter, which is .560" (.536+.012+.012)?
Macmac
Member
The grooves will fill in patching no doubt, but the area of concern is the grip on the ball held by the patch. The patching does crush to some point so 0.012" patching may crush to say 1/2 and be crushed then to say 0.006 MAYBE. Still there is two facing sides which you added... which adds up to 0.012 again but now on both sides.
I don't see how the maximum groove diameter matters, since the ball is metalic and you count on the patch to grip the ball and to crush partially.
Cutting patches isn't a good sign, but I admitt that the tighter the loadable combination is the tighter the groups will be.
Chunk Gun shooters use a barrel in sometimes excess of 50 pounds and litterally hammer the ball into the lands and grooves, with a special rod which has the ball shape made into the rod itself. These men stand before the gun and literaly pound the lead down the bore, and this lead with be over groove size to start.
At this point I am guessing this isn't for casual paper punching, and you are willing to spend more time getting a the largest possible ball with the tightest patch possible.
In some ways this could be interesting to slug the gun, with one of the balls you plan to shoot.
I have seen a real tight fit ball fired with 8 grains of FFg in a 58 cal, which was collected in water. This ball showed cloth weave markings where the lands were pressing the patch in the soft lead. That ball was no longer round by eye either, but had become ovaled and across the lands and grooves, so it became somewhat more football shaped, an extream exageration on my part, but I don't know a better way to say it.
Perhaps since I punch paper casually and hunt, my loads are not as tight, as i prefer to load easier than with a stout pre starter (short starter).
If you find you are cutting patches at the crown, maybe you can get that counter bored, which a great deal of Traditional guns were too.
That helped load tight loads with out cutting patches. I have assumed you were using pre cut pillow ticking and it is lubed with something.
The basics are load as big a ball as you can for weight, which more or less equals power in foot pounds of energy. Mate that to a patch that isn't cut loading for so tight as you please, which can load real hard if the patch is rugged enough. For the most parts a patch should survive being shot, and not be cut, torn, burn up, and or be frizzed all around the edges (shows too loose a fit)
I have seen some really too hot loads, where 2 patches were used. The first acts like a wad, to protect the patch on the ball, and or wasp nest as a wad to protect the ball, but you are not burning up patches yet ... right?
I don't see how the maximum groove diameter matters, since the ball is metalic and you count on the patch to grip the ball and to crush partially.
Cutting patches isn't a good sign, but I admitt that the tighter the loadable combination is the tighter the groups will be.
Chunk Gun shooters use a barrel in sometimes excess of 50 pounds and litterally hammer the ball into the lands and grooves, with a special rod which has the ball shape made into the rod itself. These men stand before the gun and literaly pound the lead down the bore, and this lead with be over groove size to start.
At this point I am guessing this isn't for casual paper punching, and you are willing to spend more time getting a the largest possible ball with the tightest patch possible.
In some ways this could be interesting to slug the gun, with one of the balls you plan to shoot.
I have seen a real tight fit ball fired with 8 grains of FFg in a 58 cal, which was collected in water. This ball showed cloth weave markings where the lands were pressing the patch in the soft lead. That ball was no longer round by eye either, but had become ovaled and across the lands and grooves, so it became somewhat more football shaped, an extream exageration on my part, but I don't know a better way to say it.
Perhaps since I punch paper casually and hunt, my loads are not as tight, as i prefer to load easier than with a stout pre starter (short starter).
If you find you are cutting patches at the crown, maybe you can get that counter bored, which a great deal of Traditional guns were too.
That helped load tight loads with out cutting patches. I have assumed you were using pre cut pillow ticking and it is lubed with something.
The basics are load as big a ball as you can for weight, which more or less equals power in foot pounds of energy. Mate that to a patch that isn't cut loading for so tight as you please, which can load real hard if the patch is rugged enough. For the most parts a patch should survive being shot, and not be cut, torn, burn up, and or be frizzed all around the edges (shows too loose a fit)
I have seen some really too hot loads, where 2 patches were used. The first acts like a wad, to protect the patch on the ball, and or wasp nest as a wad to protect the ball, but you are not burning up patches yet ... right?
RSVP2RIP
Member
I was in the .58 till I used 2 hornet nest leaves for buffer. I did pull a ball in the .58 once (no powder, duh) and there deffinetly were weave markings on the ball. I didn't reload the ball or measure it just noticed that the impression went all the way around. As far as too hot I use 120grs for hunting and 70 for target work. The 70 gr. load doesn't burn holes in the patch.
Smokin_Gun
Member
120gr is too much for a patched ball, if you can find a trace of the patch you'll see it's burnt thru...not a good seal. The 70gr would probly be fine the patch would not be burnt. If you use more than 70 gr on a minnie ball the skirt will strip or separate from the bullet an it will not be accuruate. As has been my experiance.
Maxis and Sabots may yeild differant results. I don't have a use for sabots. But I use the same 60gr ffg BP charge in my .50cal Maxi as I do the .490" patched round ball, and my .58 1863 Remington Minnies.
SG
Maxis and Sabots may yeild differant results. I don't have a use for sabots. But I use the same 60gr ffg BP charge in my .50cal Maxi as I do the .490" patched round ball, and my .58 1863 Remington Minnies.
SG
RSVP2RIP
Member
If the load is safe and accurate then why put a load restriction on the ball? The patch is not there to seal anything, just impart spin into an easier loading undersized ball. I use a patch protector (white-faced hornet nest material) to keep the patch intact and I get what I percieve to be cut patches once in a while only with the heavier loadings. The patches do not have the pin holes around the ball where they go into the rifling grooves. I was using commercial .010" Irish Linen round patches. When I used the .570 balls I would get the pinholes without the patch protection.
Macmac
Member
You might want to test that 120 grains load over snow or a dead old tatter white cotton bed sheet sometime. Unless your barrel is about 4 feet long surely you will find traces of un-burnt powder.
What isn't burnt up in the bore is waste and has weight, which ends up as recoil for no reason, unless it provides a cushion for the ball somehow.
In the beggining I took it as you were new to shooting a BP rifle, but I have been soundly corrected.
I can't understand how you get 0.010" patches to load in such tight fitting loads, but somehow you do.
I am guessing here you can't load and fire 3 rounds a minute though.
That you really work to load a single shot, which is getting you a tight pattern in what ever time it takes to load.
There is certainly nothing wrong with doing that either, so long as you can find a half decent patch after it was fired, which proves the load was correct.
Most of the time a flaw in a patch will end as inaccurate patterns, with flyiers all over the place.
Somehhow you have past that point, and seemingly can ruin a patch and still have good accuracy.
Now if we all could do that.. ;D
What isn't burnt up in the bore is waste and has weight, which ends up as recoil for no reason, unless it provides a cushion for the ball somehow.
In the beggining I took it as you were new to shooting a BP rifle, but I have been soundly corrected.
I can't understand how you get 0.010" patches to load in such tight fitting loads, but somehow you do.
I am guessing here you can't load and fire 3 rounds a minute though.
That you really work to load a single shot, which is getting you a tight pattern in what ever time it takes to load.
There is certainly nothing wrong with doing that either, so long as you can find a half decent patch after it was fired, which proves the load was correct.
Most of the time a flaw in a patch will end as inaccurate patterns, with flyiers all over the place.
Somehhow you have past that point, and seemingly can ruin a patch and still have good accuracy.
Now if we all could do that.. ;D
Smokin_Gun
Member
RSVP, a question that hasn't been asked I don't think...why do you want to slug the barrel? Seein' you know it's a .54cal...and has a breech plug you really don't want to remove if you don't have to. I have never had a need to slug any of my Rifles...if there were a bulge you'd see it.
Just curious...
SG
Just curious...
SG
RSVP2RIP's reason for wanting to slug the barrel was provided in post #16:
It's generally a good idea. Simply specifying a caliber really means very little with respect to the actual bore dimensions, and you can rarely get that accurately by measuring the muzzle with a micrometer. The best place is at least 2" and more like 4" inside the bore.
You can shoot various combinations of powder, lube, balls, bullets and patches until you find one the gun likes best or you can slug the bore and get a true picture of what the most likely candidates are. Slugging won't necessarily lead you to the exact answer but it'll get you close, a lot closer than just assuming sizes from the published or marked caliber.
It's generally a good idea. Simply specifying a caliber really means very little with respect to the actual bore dimensions, and you can rarely get that accurately by measuring the muzzle with a micrometer. The best place is at least 2" and more like 4" inside the bore.
You can shoot various combinations of powder, lube, balls, bullets and patches until you find one the gun likes best or you can slug the bore and get a true picture of what the most likely candidates are. Slugging won't necessarily lead you to the exact answer but it'll get you close, a lot closer than just assuming sizes from the published or marked caliber.
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