Bottom line for Clay games with an 870

[riverdog]

I was at the Trap range today watching Trap Doubles and mentally going thru the motions of using a Rem 870 in this game (my $225 WingMaster ). It looks doable but I was wondering if anyone else here shoots Trap with a pump shotgun -- okay anyone besides Dave McC

How about Skeet and Sporting Clays? Skeet should be doable but I'm thinking I'll need a lot less than full choke. Sporting Clays (5 Stand) seems to be a little fast to do well with a pump shotgun regardless of choke. The folks I saw using pumps weren't meeting with a lot of success. Seems the O/U rules.

Any comments?

 

[HSMITH]

I have shot many thousands of targets with a pump, an 870 express for most of it. It can be done and done well. For skeet a cylinder choke or IC is best, same for most 5 stand layouts. Honestly doubles trap is the hardest of all for a pump. Skeet is simple really, and most sporting shots are easily done with a pump.

 

[PJR]

At one time or another I've shot all the games with a pump gun. If you are driven to attain higher scores the challenge is greater with a repeater than a semi auto or over/under. I don't think new shooters should start shooting skeet or sporting with a pump gun unless that's all they have. There's enough to sort out in both games without having to remember to shuck the action.

But if you're just out having fun and like shooting pump guns. Why not?

Paul

 

[Dave McCracken]

The current Ohio SC champ uses an 870, I hear.

Fred Etchen used a brand new 870 in 1950 he bought just before the event. He shot the first 100 straight in doubles recorded at the Grand with it. He did another 100 straight in the 1980s, with the same 870. He made the All American team a hoop of times with an 870.

Trap Singles is a piece of cake with a pump as far as operation goes. Same with Handicap.

I've shot relatively little skeet, but see no major problem with an 870.

SC and 5 stand pose plenty of probs for me, but not because of my weapon of choice. I've shot plenty of real teal and bunny wabbits, but never had them do like their namesakes on the courses.

One thing, if one can obliterate a little clay frisbee moving at 35 to 50 MPH in one direction and then acquire another moving at a different speed and direction and treat it similarly, one attains a level of expertise that's excellent for "Serious" usage or hunting.

And if someone ASKS why you use a pump, just smile quietly and say you like a challenge...

 

[riverdog]

Thanks for the wise counsel. I'll stick with what I know for now and use the games to improve my skill with an 870 rather than switching guns in an attempt to artificially raise my score. It should be a good way to determine my limitations. Saves me a bunch of coin too; Berettas and Brownings are not cheap.

 

[Dave McCracken]

You're welcome. As for determining your limits, yes but it also will change them.

Brownings and Berettas are good shotguns. But I doubt you'll hit many more whatevers than with that 870. Any shotgunner without an 870 in his/her battery is not as well prepared as one with.

 

[riverdog]

For the typical 5'9" 160# shooter, which barrel length is optimum for skeet and sporting clays? I'm thinking that for the short range passing shots a 26" barrel would work well, but what does experience say? I'll probably stay with the 30" Full for Trap. Thanks again.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Next 870 project seems to be obtaining a 26" Light Contour bbl, have Greg Wolfe do the cone, and use same for 5 stand, skeet, SC and so on. It'll have a 3" chamber so I can try out those Hevi Shot goose and duck loads, and a series of tubes from Cylinder through Extra Tight(.685").

It'll be used on both my TB and Frankenstein.

While I'm bigger than you by a good margin, I think this size barrel will work nicely for you.

The 30" Full barrel on the TB will be used for most trap, and this new barrel will be for the other stuff, possibly including a dove shoot or two.

Much as I like shooting at PGC, the 23" barrel rule irks the heck out of me. Since Frank's present barrel is nominally 21", I cannot use it there.

If your club isn't so biased, a riot style barrel does good work for the closer shots. I doubt I could damage my average at 5 stand by going to a Cylinder or Police Cylinder bored 18" barrel, and changing loads for the longer shots instead of chokes. Try one and see if you can.

HTH....

 

[Detritus]

comment on 18" barrels in "clay sports"

last time i visited my clubs shotgun range i did so with a Stoeger "coach gun" (18" barreled SxS) and did just as well as the other 4 shooters present, on everything except Trap (gun has fixed cholkes, and the chokes are fairly open). the laughter i heard when i first brought the gun out died and never returned.

some of the "cowboy" matches i've been too occasionally hold "cowboy skeet" and "cowboy clays" of varying types. as side matches. you use the same shotgun that you used for you "main match" gun. for tha majority of shooters this means a Stoeger or Winchester '97 (or clone) coachgun. most folks i know, would be surprised by the scores many people rack up.

 

[riverdog]

Thanks for confirming the 26" barrel. I'm considering a dedicated skeet barrel with 2 3/4" chamber, I have never used 3" shells, so not having 3" capability isn't really a loss.

I plan to try my 20" rifle sight slug barrel for skeet also; I really want to work it against moving targets. Thanks again.

 

[InternationalShotgun.com]

There are actually few better ways to really learn to use a pump shotgun than to shoot skeet with it. It reinforces most of the shotgun fundamentals.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Detritus,it's not the shotgun,it's the shotgunner. Those Stoegers aren't the fanciest around but they're durable and go bang when needed.

Riverdog, a good choice. 3" capability is nice to have but not mandatory...

InternationalShotgun.com, good to see you. Hope to shoot with you again some time at PGC. I will stop by your site this AM.

Skeet, trap or rats at the dump, the best way to learn a shotgun is to use same.

 

[riverdog]

Dave,
Went with the 3" chamber after all. Also picked up Briley Skeet choke and Full choke tubes to supplement the Mod RemChoke tube that comes with the barrel. I'll see how these work and will get add'l chokes as required. I'll try both the 30" Full bbl I have and the new 26" RC bbl on Trap to see whether there's an appreciable difference.

 

[Dave McCracken]

A coupla things, Riverdog....

First, pattern both barrels for POI/POA and see if they match. Should be fairly close, but feces occurs.

Second, the three chokes ought to be plenty, one can tailor loads to a particular shot by switching components or brands. For instance, Fed Walmart Specials have nice hard shot, according to a reputable source, and pattern a bit tighter than other brands of generic 8s.Instead of mo' Brileys, spend a tubes's worth of money on a cone job. This mimics a tighter choke, but what it really does is keep more pellets in the pattern.

Third, most folks can break more birds at 16 yard trap in the beginning using a modified choke, all else equal. But, a Full choke will teach you to stay on the bird better. You'll lose a few birds now and gain them back later, plus some.

Fourth, the shorter barrel may feel very close in weight and swing to that 30" job, due to the extra weight at the muzzle from the Remchokes.

HTH, and enjoy...

 

[HSMITH]

Find a local shop with the Hastings Extended chokes, they are cheaper than Brileys by a bunch and just as good.

Dave Dave Dave Dave!!!!!! "Three chokes ought to be plenty", that is HERESY!!!! A guy needs a PILE of chokes, not to shoot but to pattern and play with.

On a serious note, I would pick up something in the .022-.025" constriction and use that for my trap shooting if it patterned well. Tight chokes will tell you a lot about what you are doing right and doing wrong if you are looking. Tight chokes are a darn good learning tool once the basics are firmly in hand.

 

[riverdog]

Chokes are a topic of their own, but when reviewing choke tubes, I found it interesting that the choke terms are not the same from different manufacturers. Remington's Skeet choke is overbored by .003 at .732 while Briley's Skeet choke is constricted by .005. Modified chokes are the same at .020 constriction while other chokes vary about .001. The choke (I believe) HSMITH recommends is Briley's Imp-Mod at .025. Remington skips from .020 (modified) to .029 (single). Their Full chokes are similar but I suspect that the difference in performance will be measurable. Briley has an interesting read at http://www.briley.com/ Select "Articles" on the left column and then, "What chokes are you using?". An interesting excerpt:
quote
"It is an unscientific science and I really do not have the slightest idea how it works, and I don't think that any of us knows exactly how it works. There are propositions that it works like fluid dynamics, but that isn't correct. All that I know is that the information that we have is based empirically. We go and do this, we have this kind of constriction or this kind of geometry within the choke, and we shoot them and see the effect." unquote

Thanks for all the help guys. It will be interesting to compare the barrels I have first hand and get my own empirical info.

PS: Dave, what is a "cone job"?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Relax, H, no need to sic the Tube Police on me yet.

First, I've a mixed set of Hastings and Colonial tubes for Frank. The Super Full Turkey tube does a yeoman job, 90% plus patterns at 40 yards with the Remington Duplex 6X4 load.IIRC,about 18-20 pellets in a turkey head/neck silohuette.Frank's bobbed off barrel does have a good 1 1/2" cone job.

CONE JOB:

Not a perverted practice but a lengthening of the forcing cone to reduce the pressure spike and the shot deformation that may occur at launch.

Second, three quality tubes will cover the gamut for Joe Shotgunner. However, often a given load will match up with a particular tube and do much better than can be expected at a given distance.

This takes patterning(There's the P word again).

Sometimes 5 POC makes no difference in pattern, sometimes a big jump occurs when going up down one little increment. "Cut and Try" still is a good practice. Some things we don't know about shot clouds and never will.

Bill Gillette, the nomadic genius of Big Ridge Gunsmithing, says the best all around choke for trap is about 25 POC. That's Improved Modified on most scales.

Also, when I get that LC barrel with its 3 standard tubes, I expect to do some swapping at the dealers so I don't duplicate the Remchokes on hand. I'll end up with Cylinder, Skeet, Light Mod, Mod, Improved Mod and Supertight. That enough, H?

 

[Britt]

I'd think that an 870 would be more than adequate for trap or skeet. I actually shoot trap with a BT-99, inherited from a family member that no longer shoots, but all of my skeet shooting is done with a Winchester Model 12. While my shotgun selection (and score) proves nothing relating to how well they work, try to remember that Herb Parsons also shot pump guns, specifically the Model 12. I doubt if he had much trouble on doubles.
Good luck, BD

 

[HSMITH]

Riverdog is right, that would be an improved modified from Briley. Hastings has a much simpler system. The choke is numbered, that number (6 for example) X .004" = (.024") the constriction of the choke in question. 0-10 are usually stocked by dealers, and with .004" increments it is hard to not find one that works. Beyond the #10 numbers are available, and some dealers stock them as well. a 2, 4, 6, and 10 will cover most anything in clay target shooting.

Cone jobs, IMO need to be a minimum of 1.5", and 2.5" is better yet. I have seen very little improvement if any in short cones with all but large lead shot. The longer the cone the more it seems to help with smaller shot, and large shot too. If you are not going to get at least 2" lengthening I would not spend the money. I have done cones from 1" to 4.5", and have not seen much if any improvement over about 2.5-3" long. Witrh birdshot a cone job is marginally helpful, steel shot it is a waste, and buckshot it helps.


That is a pretty good battery of chokes Dave. Drop the Cyl choke, add a "darn tight" in there and it would match my own ideal set.

 

[Dave McCracken]

H, the two best smiths I know, Greg Wolfe and Mr Gillette, say that more than 1 1/2" is not useful.

All of us seem to agree that longer cones are good, we differ on the amount.

The cone job on my oldest bbl, chokeless and 18", seemed to reduce pattern size with 00 nicely, though basically it was just keeping one or two flyers in each load from uh, flying.

Too late now, but I should have patterned Frank's barrel with the turkey load of choice before and after the cone job to compare apples to apples.

 

[HSMITH]

Dave, call me stupid, but I cut the cone on the same BPS 4 times, 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" and 2" long. Straight taper from the chamber diameter to the bore diameter, cut on a lathe and polished out with 1200 grit polish, nearly mirrored. I shot some patterns with it and did not see much if any difference on the pattern board with birdshot, #7.5 and smaller. I did not shoot much buckshot through that gun ever, and my record keeping on that project does not exist. I was doing it for my satisfaction only, and for the "farting around with cool gun stuff" factor. The 2" cone was the best for me with that gun in all loads. I have cut a few cones since, but I start at 2" if the material is there, and have cut to 4" long before just for kicks on an express barrel. Unless shooting large lead or buck most cone work is a waste IMO if you have to pay for it. I am lucky enough to be able to do it myself. Felt recoil to ME is a little better, but not nearly as improved as a slow powder makes it feel IMO.

Maybe if I get the urge again I will actually make a scientific endeavor of it, and cut the same barrel a couple times again. It proved it to me, but without documentation it is just a story.....

 

[Dave McCracken]

Stupid is about the last thing I'll call you, H.

I've a hunch the point of diminishing results varies with the shot size. IOW, 7 1/2s may do best, all else equal,with a cone of X length, and 6s with one plus or minus something. Splitting hairs, perhaps.

Nest time the urge strikes, how about patterning with a quality load, and comparing the patterns as far as center loading goes as the cone gets longer. Got another hunch that center loading will increase as the cone lessens deformation. But only testing will prove or disprove this.

 

[HSMITH]

Dave, center loading DID go up in the original testing I did, but it did not seem out of proportion to the fringe areas. Your hunch on a cone length for the best patterns with a particular shot size seems true to me as well. I patterned #9's, #7.5's, #4 Steel, #2 Steel and BBB Steel with the different cone lengths. Steel made ZIP differences no matter what, that crap shoots where it shoots with the choke LOL. The smaller the shot size the less differences I saw, in other words a skeet shooter is wasting money to have cone work done unless he is near the top of the game IMO. Trap shooters with the #7.5 shot will see some benefit, but I am going to be the last guy to say it has cost anyone a target, the patterns I shot were just not a great deal better. The #7.5 shot did see a difference as early as the first cut, and it seemed to get better and better as the cone got longer.

I have another 870 Express and an 1100LC barrel here still sporting the cone mother Remmy sent them to me with, I think everythig else is backbored and coned in my collection now. With any luck I might get around to working on it this summer. Too bad we are not neighbors Dave, would be nice having a testing partner. I could see this getting quite technical and lengthy. Some buckshot would also need to be included, and 20-50 patterns with that is not a lot of fun LOL.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Agreed on testing partners, H, we'd make one heckuva set of neighbors. The Oberfell and Thompson of the New Century(G)....

As for center loading, this will improve things for folks using the lighter loads, like 7/8 and 1 oz in 12 gauge. Pattern density HAS to have that one pellet in every 2 sq in to be effective with smaller shot.

I'm using 7 1/2 shot now for trap instead of 8 1/2. I like the more emphatic breaks from the bigger pellets in cold weather.

I may still get the cone done on the TB one of these days, but only in conjunction with opening up that .695" choke to .708", or getting tubes installed. I want a 16 yard trap gun, not one for turkey shoots.

Steel shot is another universe, and I for one am glad there's now alternatives.

 

[riverdog]

If shooting just 2 3/4" shells, how much difference will a lengthened forcing cone effect 2 3/4' and 3" chambered barrels? The reason I ask is that I have two 30' Full Choke barrels, stock from Remington -- one 3" and one 2 3/4". Which would gain the most from a forcing cone job? I suspect the 2 3/4" barrel will see the most benefit. I am considering sending it to out to have both the forcing cone and Screw-In Choke Tubes installed. The idea would be to make this a dedicated Trap barrel. Comments?