Bout to enter back into the realm of the 1911.

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scythefwd

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I've had one before, a colt 1991a1.. couldn't keep it 3 months before wanting to get rid of it. I got one offered in trade for my sig that I've posted up locally for sale/trade.

Its a RIA 1911 tatical 9mm. I get it why? Because my wife has trouble taming a 9mm. She isn't afraid to shoot it, but she cant keep that flinch out, so I'm going with the heaviest thing there is. Will I change it.. probably.. better sights, different grips, possibly have that "I cant grip my gun right" nub on the grip safety ground down. I'll let you know how it fires. I have a range day the 15th. If nothing else, I can always use the frame in a mechtech ccu and turn it into a carbine, and have the grip safety pinned (I really see NO reason to have it today).
 
She'd be much better off with a .22 (Ruger 22/45 or Buckmark, even a GSG).

Unless, of course, this is just an excuse for you to acquire a gun you want and frustrate her more.

JHMO.
 
mljdeckard.. what harm do you see coming from it? If the thumb safety is properly used.. that grip safety does nothing. There are commercial services (or there were) that actually removed it and blended a hunk of steel into the frame there to fill the void.

Teach, I suspect that she'll be able to handle it.. she doesn't have any issues, and it doesnt frustrate her.. she aknowledges she needs to practice.. and needs some work on her form. Figured why not get something heavier than what I already have? The grip on my beretta is too large.. and they dont get much smaller in all metal full size guns than the 1911.
 
If the problem is flinching shouldn't that be addressed first? I agree with TeachU2 in that possibly working with a small caliber and developing good shooting habits may be a start at eliminating the flinch or anticipating the gun going bang.

Just My Take
Ron
 
reload.. I have several smaller calibers to train on, from 22, 25 acp, 32 mag (and some longs to go along.. which she handles fine.. no discernable flinch). I dont see how me getting the 1911 automatically precluded me from having other smaller calibers to work with her on.. nor does it negate the logic of why I chose to go with a heavier 9mm vs. the lighter polymer sig sp2022 I'm trading it for.

Not sure if its flinching, which isn't a problem.. or an improper sight picture. She may be afraid of the rotational nature of the recoil vs. the raising nature that comes with revolvers. She handled my old many 32 acp well enough to remind me not to piss her off at any distance closer that about 30 ft.. cause she'd end me easily. The only 9mm she's fired was a m9.. and while she didn't feel like it was man handling her.. its frame weight, and lightened slide make it extrememly difficult to limp wrist.. and if she isn't locking her wrists.. that can be causing a good deal of her erratic control.

I figure I'll start off with a load just warm enough to reliably cycle the slide.. and slowly work up to something around 3/4 max load. Using 147gr because it pushes more than snaps (I know, its 9mm and hard to even tell the difference). All ready to rock, just waiting on my bullet order to come in. I might even do the same with .40 once she gets accustomed to the 9mm.
 
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I never said harm would occur. I said no GOOD could come from it. Harm certainly MAY occur if you interfere with the design of a gun and remove a layer of safety. That safety is one of the reasons it is ok to carry a 1911 in condition one. If you pin it, it is like walking around with your hand on it all the time.
 
mljdeckard - MAY occur if you interfere with the design of a gun and remove a layer of safety

I'd recommend looking up the ballestar molina. 1911 without a grip safety. That safety, by design, prevents the trigger from reward travel. What happens when you activate the thumb safety, and try to pull the trigger? No reward travel of the trigger. Like I said earlier, IF the thumb safety is used correctly, as in always on unless you're intending to shoot, the grip safety serves no function but to back up the thumb safety. It'd be like carrying any and every other SA only semi-auto with one in the chamber. Perfect example.. JMB's next semi-auto design.. the Hi Power.

So I repeat my question, what harm MAY come from removing that safety if the thumb safety is used consistently and is left on until the gun is pointing at something you intend to destroy, and you are ready to shoot?

And I ask another question as well:
If "That safety is one of the reasons it is ok to carry a 1911 in condition one", what about the design makes using the thumb safety alone an unsuitable method of carrying in condition one? Or to rephrase, what makes disabling the grip safety while leaving the other safety in place an unsuitable way to carry the 1911 in condition one?

And for the fun question, why is it assumed that this 1911 would be carried? I have not posted anything intimating that, period. I said this is for my wife because it would be easier to control.. carrying has nothing to do with that.
 
scythefwd, my experience has been that flinching (especially for women) isn't just due to recoil - it's the concussion from the muzzle blast, the noise, and the recoil (in that order). My wife was raised around long guns, and raised that handguns were very dangerous. She had no interest in shooting one for the first 23 years we were married. Then she attended a few competitions as a spectator, and decided that if all those men and women could compete and nobody get shot, maybe it was OK - so she asked if I'd teach her.

She started out with .22s - a 22/45 which she disliked, and a S&W .22 snubbie which she loved. She got very good with it, so we moved to a .38 Airweight. After about 20 rounds, she started flinching. I could see it, but she couldn't - until I only loaded three rounds. When she hit the empty, it was obvious she was lunging into the recoil as she pulled the trigger. Back to the .22 for a little practice.

Once she got her mind around trigger control, she was ready to go to an autoloader. She found the 22/45 much better at this stage - she was ready to deal with a slide and ejecting cases, etc. Next thing I know, she wants to try a 1911 in .45acp - and she was very good with it. SHe did tire quickly, and wanted a lighter gun.

That set us on a quest to get "her" gun. She wanted a 9mm that she could possibly carry. The helpful folks at the sales counter pulled out a Ruger LC9, and it was love at first sight.

So I bought her one. We took possession of it and headed to the range. She fired three rounds, set it on the bench, and was done with it. What looked good and felt good at the sales counter was entirely different under recoil. That slim, easily concealable grip beat on the nerves in her hand to the point of tears. A grip sleeve helped, but not much. It shot great for me - but was the wrong choice for her.

So I had her relax a minute, and I went out to the rental counter. I got every 9mm they had and she shot them all. The M&P 9c was the clear winner. The grip fit her, and she was accurate with it.

So now she has a M&P 9c. She still flinches when she loses concentration, but all I have to say is "Trigger" and she gets her focus back. She uses the .22s if she hasn't shot for a while, as it helps her regain trigger control - and avoid flinching. Maybe I ought to add a M&P 22 to the armory...
 
And if you remove the grip safety, what happens if she drops it at the range? Not that that EVER happens....
 
Teach, the same thing that would happen with every other SA if she were to drop it.. in all likely hood.. not much. The balance of a 5" 1911 is forward, especially when loaded with 9mm. Gravity would pull the barrel down, and if forward impact of the gun is enough to pull the sear free of the notch on the hammer.. then the gun is unsafe to begin with, because there is NO safety that protects against it at any time.
 
the grip safety is also a drop safety, for when you fumble the gun after moving the lever to the "more safe" setting

disabling it (unless you have a specific hand issue) adds no advantage, I suggest just leaving it alone

If you want a .22 conversion, RIA/Armscor sells the XT22, it is a great little trainer gun - mine is superb except for being somewhat ammo picky. Ranter than making a gun that sort of looks like a 1911 on the outside, they just mounted a conversion kit to a real 1911 frame, so all the parts interchange to some degree.

And a word on Armscor/RIA warranty - the warranty is on the gun, not any particular owner. So long as you don't deliberately damage it or have some random gunsmith monkey with it, you have a great warranty and the services of the gunsmiths at the Nevada location to fix any problems ... forever. It might be worth considering having Arnel and crew in Nevada do any work you'd like done on the gun.
 
bfd - understood, but not having it there, you are not running any increased risk over dropping another semi auto thats off safe (barring anything with a FP safety).

Heavy end will go down if there is restence on the other end, aka the hand as it leaves it (unless she somehow drops it mid recoil, which hasn't been a problem with anything as of yet).

Teach.. my mind can be changed, but will require something more concrete than MAY happen, no good can happen.. but no description on how the action is any less safe. I'll be the first to admit I dont like the 1911. If she doesnt mind the grip safety, it will stay. I personally think its a waste of steel. I have yet to see any argument though, that proves that it not being there somehow makes the gun inherently less safe than my Hi power or any other older semi auto. If there is an argument that doesn't rely on the person dropping the gun with the safety off at the range (lets be honest, if I drop my gun in a fight where I've pulled it.. I have bigger worries cause I'm about to be killed than if my gun is going to discharge) when its been pointing down range in a safe direction. I've watched the absolutely beautifly animated descriptions of how the safeties work together, and what they function. I've read through the thread, from first post to last, on how the 1911 safety system works. I've yet to see anything that says pinning that safety, which is common in bullseye matches, is somehow exposing me or my wife, who have never dropped a gun, to any iota of increased danger over a gun that was designed without one.

this is the thread I referenced.. but the pics were actually there in 09 when I read it.
http://http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651612&highlight=how+1911+safety+works
 
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What is the advantage of removing it?

And are you aware that the move to lightweight/skeletonized triggers was (in part) an attempt to increase drop safety?

I have 4 Armscor-built 1911-pattern guns ... none of them have a difficult to disengage grip safety, when I grip the gun, the grip safety is moved to the "less safe" position, when I do not grip the gun, it spring returns to the "more safe" position. I've tested the GS with gravity hindering the operation, and I've tested it with a reasonable weight of cloth draped over it (pointing down in holster, with shirt bunched over it) ... unless I deliberately grip the gun (or sit in a really strangely built chair) the GS is in the "more safe" position. Maybe you've never had a safety lever get jiggled into the "less safe" position while you're carrying, but finding it that way a few times (and being aware of the really nice light trigger) makes you glad to have a passive safety device ... even though I ended up sewing a leather scrap on as a "keep safety lever in 'more safe' position" ramp in the end to make myself more comfortable.

The GS works as a safety device without being in any way difficult to disengage ... a truly passive safety, performing a different function than the manual safety device located near your right thumb.
Removing it leaves you with a very light trigger and nothing but a manual safety lever to prevent a ND. Unless there is a specific ergonomic concern with it, leave it alone.
 
I wouldn't call 5 lbs very light.. hell, my beretta has a 4 lb trigger.

You're right, I've never had a safety migrate from on to off while carrying. With it pressed against my body.. not sure how it could happen even.

Yes, I understand that its spring loaded and always on unless you are holding the gun.. My personal experience.. which differes from yours, shows that a thumb safety does the exact same thing.. its on until I take it off.

Greg, the grip safety in it self is a solution in search of a problem. My grip has never had an issue disabling it, on any of the 1911's that I've fired. Not sure where you got the idea I wanted it pinned because I couldn't activate it.. I want it GONE. Pinned is just easier and less labor intensive. But, like I said, if the wife dont care.. we'll keep it. I'll probably have to replace it though.. I dont see her enjoying the idiot nub on the bottom of it any more than I do.. why can't they make a beaver tail without the nub (if you know someone who does.. please post a link.. flush sitting is better than that dang nub). I see the grip safety in the same light as I see trigger safeties on guns in a safe. You have one safe, keeps someone from using your guns.. and you have to take an action to disable it (grip it), then you have to take another action to remove the trigger lock (which will be a joke to anyone getting past a safe). If it makes yall feel any better, I hate ALL extra safeties on a gun beyond a thumb safety. FP block, keep your finger off the trigger, be aware of what you are doing and crap isn't going to get stuck in your trigger as you re-holster. Mag disconnects - if it breaks wrong.. completely disabled gun.. idiotic and redundant to the thumb safety. If you dont have a thumb safety.. fine, a grip safety makes sense...

Honest question, what is the purpose of that nub at the bottom of grip safeties? Like Greg said, if you have a grip on it, its going to be disabled.
 
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She'd be much better off with a .22 (Ruger 22/45 or Buckmark, even a GSG).
Click to expand...
I have to agree. Practice with a .22 is 'the' solution to flinching.

I also agree that there is no good reason to pin the grip safety.

I also see that your mind is already made up, so I'm not sure why you even posted the thread. I will say that I really like my new RIA Tactical model, though it is a .45ACP. I'd like to have one in 9mm for cheaper practice. Forgive the Springfield grips, I like them better than the factory grips and it's awaiting installation of a magwell and custom grips anyway.
IMG_0978b.jpg
 
the nub on the bottom is a "solution" for the people afraid they won't be able to depress the GS properly in the first place, beyond that you'd have to ask 1911tuner for a complete rundown on the history of that add-on
I've seen it called a "memory bump" - which implies that it is designed to promote a proper grip
I've seen it called a "speed bump" - which implies that it is designed to compensate for a less than ideal grip
... who knows? it isn't a problem, unless the manufacturer is adding a huge hump there that bothers the user.

I don't find the smallish one RIA uses uncomfortable, but if I did, I surely wouldn't be screwing around having it ground down, I'd just get a replacement part.
 
scythefwd said:
You're right, I've never had a safety migrate from on to off while carrying. With it pressed against my body.. not sure how it could happen even.
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It is usually a function of carry or transporting the gun in a soft sided case.

There was a recent thread...not sure if on this forum...of a hiker who discovered his thumb safety repeatedly being click off by his jacket. I know several folks who were surpised to find their thumb safety in the off position when removing it from the bedside drawer.

It is also not uncommon to find the thumb safety being disengaged in a holster when the carrier has been riding in a car.

...the grip safety in it self is a solution in search of a problem. ...I hate ALL extra safeties on a gun beyond a thumb safety.
Click to expand...
The thumb safety was actually part of the original 1911 design....it would be similar to the Glock safety lever on the trigger. It was originally designed without a thumb safety and it's addition was added at the Army's request to lower the possibility that mounted troops wouldn't shoot their horses when reholstering without being able to clear the chamber first.

Honest question, what is the purpose of that nub at the bottom of grip safeties? Like Greg said, if you have a grip on it, its going to be disabled.
Click to expand...
The Speed Bump was in response to folks who were not deactivating the grip safety when trying to attain a higher hold on the 1911. As the web of your hand presses upward, it levers the bottom of the grip safety out. The Speed bump allowed a faster and higher grip on the gun on the draw without worrying about depressing the grip safety. A contributing factor was the need to ride the thumb safety with the strong thumb...it pulls your palm away from the backstrap...but to grip with your strong thumb below the thumb safety lever is to invite a malfunction.

The term Memory Bump was coined by Ed Brown when he added the lateral grooves to the Speed Bump. Their purpose was to provide tactile feedback/index of a correct grip
 
Thanks for the info 9mm.

Interesting on the thumb safety.. I do notice that he never put another grip safety on, but moved to thumb safeties on the rest of his designs.

I guess the lack of communication is stemming from a different point of view. I see a lot of "I see no reason to remove it", where I believe that any redundant system should be removed. Since the grip safety and the thumb safety perform redundant functions, albeit in a different manner, either could go.. I prefer the thumb safety.

To those saying put her back on a 22 to train out a flinch.. what do you do when there isn't a flinch with the 22, the 32 acp, the 32 mag? Im not sure where she's going wrong.. but she definitely couldn't handle the beretta.. That could have been a grip not fitting her hands thing.
 
As others have noted, flinches have at least as much to do with muzzle blast, flash, and noise. The 9mm, regardless of platform, is going to have more of those things than a .22 or .32. As with any flinch, there are a number of ways to overcome it. If she hasn't been double-plugging (plugs over muffs), start. Then have her try to see the gun firing. Don't worry about targets; point safely at a backstop, but otherwise have her focus entirely on seeing the gun and sights. Ask her to try to see the muzzle flash. Ask her to try to see which way the brass ejects. Ask her to see how high the front sight gets in recoil. Even if she cannot see all of those things, it may get her mind off the anticipation and get her focused on keeping her eyes open. If she can keep her eyes open, she probably won't flinch; my belief is that flinching almost always begins with the eyes.

A big, steel platform cannot hurt. But it probably won't solve the flinch by itself.
 
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