sturmruger
Member
Thank you Telewinz for posting this inflamatory thread and not bothering to comment to what anyone has replied. If you didn't have so many posts here on THR I would call you a Troll.
Bowling for Columbine...valid points
- Thread starter telewinz
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Relax
The idea wasn't to throw a "grenade" or troll. I do on occasion go to work and cannot monitor THR and give blow by blow answers. Read my post, all I asked was what the big deal is, I didn't said I agreed with his documentary, only that he made some valid points.
1. America is a country that lives in fear.
2. Male blacks ARE feared much more than White males.
3. Proverty and violent crime ARE related.
4. 1 & 2 ARE used as tools by the politians to divert public attention.
Michael Moore has little to no credibility in my opinion and I feel K-Mart caving in like they did in agreeing not to sell pistol ammo was cowardly. BUT Charleston Heston (as a known spokesperson for the NRA) not being able to articulate a good response to Moore's "verbal attack" left a bad taste in my mouth. If he wasn't prepared for an interview, why did he invite Moore into his home?
As I view it, guns ARE NOT THE PROBLEM...it's our culture. Being a 1st world country, our way of life (violence) rivals that of more than a few 3rd world countries. This may not be a "feel good" comment but it's minor compared to the "trashing" others on THR have done to our country.
Besides, if I wanted to start a "firestorm" I'd present the government's defense on WACO. Now thats a peacefull topic.
The idea wasn't to throw a "grenade" or troll. I do on occasion go to work and cannot monitor THR and give blow by blow answers. Read my post, all I asked was what the big deal is, I didn't said I agreed with his documentary, only that he made some valid points.
1. America is a country that lives in fear.
2. Male blacks ARE feared much more than White males.
3. Proverty and violent crime ARE related.
4. 1 & 2 ARE used as tools by the politians to divert public attention.
Michael Moore has little to no credibility in my opinion and I feel K-Mart caving in like they did in agreeing not to sell pistol ammo was cowardly. BUT Charleston Heston (as a known spokesperson for the NRA) not being able to articulate a good response to Moore's "verbal attack" left a bad taste in my mouth. If he wasn't prepared for an interview, why did he invite Moore into his home?
As I view it, guns ARE NOT THE PROBLEM...it's our culture. Being a 1st world country, our way of life (violence) rivals that of more than a few 3rd world countries. This may not be a "feel good" comment but it's minor compared to the "trashing" others on THR have done to our country.
Besides, if I wanted to start a "firestorm" I'd present the government's defense on WACO. Now thats a peacefull topic.
mjydrafter
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2003
- Messages
- 71
I think he kind of "fooled" Mr Heston, with the I'm a Life member of the NRA and I just want to make a movie about guns...(wink wink)
I agree that he shouldn't have let him in.
I didn't care for that sequence at all.
I thought the main message of the movie (the one that actually had some basis in reality) was the whole media perpetuating fear thing. If it bleeds, It leads...which is quite an odd position for a liberal like MM.
Overall I didn't think it should have won any awards, though.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
heres one part of BFC that made me want to puke all over MM:
the cartoon where he narrates that some people were 'afraid' of having their right to worship who they want decided to cross the atlantic. then people who were 'afraid' of the indians took their land. then people who were 'afraid' of working bought slaves. and so on and so on and so on.
by MM's rationale, he should actually be grateful that some people were 'afraid' enough to create a country and write a Constitution that ensures he has the right to produce whatever crap he wishes.
for me, i couldnt get past MM's entire concept of 'fear', and how he feels its a 'bad' thing that people are motivated by fear.
yes, i fear becoming a victim of crime. thats why i work hard to hone my situational awareness. its also why i obtained my CHL. and why i practice my shooting at the range.
but MM doesnt show in BFC any part of that kind of action based on 'fear'. instead he keeps insinuating that gunowning Americans are afraid of their own shadow and pull the trigger on anything that moves.
MM reminds me of Zalinsky from the movie 'tommy boy', who was an excellent salesman. remember this line?:
What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public, alright?
that embodies MM's whole philosophy.
the cartoon where he narrates that some people were 'afraid' of having their right to worship who they want decided to cross the atlantic. then people who were 'afraid' of the indians took their land. then people who were 'afraid' of working bought slaves. and so on and so on and so on.
by MM's rationale, he should actually be grateful that some people were 'afraid' enough to create a country and write a Constitution that ensures he has the right to produce whatever crap he wishes.
for me, i couldnt get past MM's entire concept of 'fear', and how he feels its a 'bad' thing that people are motivated by fear.
yes, i fear becoming a victim of crime. thats why i work hard to hone my situational awareness. its also why i obtained my CHL. and why i practice my shooting at the range.
but MM doesnt show in BFC any part of that kind of action based on 'fear'. instead he keeps insinuating that gunowning Americans are afraid of their own shadow and pull the trigger on anything that moves.
MM reminds me of Zalinsky from the movie 'tommy boy', who was an excellent salesman. remember this line?:
What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public, alright?
that embodies MM's whole philosophy.
MikeB
Member
I know that's what Moore wants you to think, but do you really live in fear. I know I don't, well I'm a bit frightened by Spiders and I don't like Ticks too much; however I don't walk around afraid of black people or random crime and what not.
Moore probably lives in fear, many liberals do. That doesn't mean that all Americans live in fear.
Regardless the little cartoon where he talks about the fear is full of historical innacuracies, so his conclusions are a little suspect.
I don't care want M. Moore wants or believes and I never said I live in fear. But just reading some of the posts made on THR for the past 15 months I can't help but believe many others do. Moore doesn't have that much influence upon me, and I'm not a knee jerk conservative either as some appear to be. I loved the cartoon, I thought it was funny
Blood and guts gets good ratings in the media, it's a fact. We eat it up and buy more guns and alarms. Their is a buck to be made. Don't wag the tail, wag the dog.Wrong!
Watch it on tape. Stop and check out the facts.
We did and we found for instance,
Mike da moron says...
Canada has the same % minroity population and no crime problem.
The fact is ...
The minority in Canada is mostly Chineese. In the US its predominately African American and Hispanic. Is there a difference?
How about the crime rates . The fat Moron said Canda has a lower violent crime rate than the US.
Wrong again. Canadas violent crime rate was higher. There are more home invasions, assaults and rapes in Canada as a % than the US. The US does beat Candad in murder. However most of those murders take place in the minority neighborhoods.
It goes on and on. If you dont believe me get the tape and check out the facts for yourself on the net.
Dont Like Mike the Moron turn you into the "manchurian candidate" with his filmed misrepresentations.
Watch it on tape. Stop and check out the facts.
We did and we found for instance,
Mike da moron says...
Canada has the same % minroity population and no crime problem.
The fact is ...
The minority in Canada is mostly Chineese. In the US its predominately African American and Hispanic. Is there a difference?
How about the crime rates . The fat Moron said Canda has a lower violent crime rate than the US.
Wrong again. Canadas violent crime rate was higher. There are more home invasions, assaults and rapes in Canada as a % than the US. The US does beat Candad in murder. However most of those murders take place in the minority neighborhoods.
It goes on and on. If you dont believe me get the tape and check out the facts for yourself on the net.
Dont Like Mike the Moron turn you into the "manchurian candidate" with his filmed misrepresentations.
I tried to watch it twice, but I couldn't get through it. Saw all about the last 15 or so minutes. Very bad film making. I finally returned it to the video store before I had to pay a late fee.
The good points that were raised in the film have been raised before and given better treatments elsewhere. I don't think Moore added anything new or unique.
The bad points are easily refuted. The websites pointing out his errors and dishonesty sprung up almost immediately. No one will be hiring him to shoot propaganda pieces any time soon.
It may not be a very nuanced approach to simply call Michael Moore a lying SOB. But I don't think it implies that I haven't thought things through. Any good points he made were made better by others and simply rehashed for the movie. They were only used to try get the audience to a certian emotional point and then capitalize on the negative emotion by throwing in guns. This is bad...this is bad... this is bad...oh, now look at the guns, those must be bad too. But even most of the stuff intended to work up the negative emotions was incorrect or used in misleading ways. And the bait and switch was ineffective on all but the already anti leaning audience members. The logic connecting them just wasn't there.
I don’t think Americans have a particularly violent culture, despite the media hype. I, for one, don't get into fist fights (well, once when I was about 8, but he had it coming ). I don't walk around angry or fearful or ready to blow the head off anyone who looks at me wrong. And I don't know anyone who does.
The good points that were raised in the film have been raised before and given better treatments elsewhere. I don't think Moore added anything new or unique.
The bad points are easily refuted. The websites pointing out his errors and dishonesty sprung up almost immediately. No one will be hiring him to shoot propaganda pieces any time soon.
It may not be a very nuanced approach to simply call Michael Moore a lying SOB. But I don't think it implies that I haven't thought things through. Any good points he made were made better by others and simply rehashed for the movie. They were only used to try get the audience to a certian emotional point and then capitalize on the negative emotion by throwing in guns. This is bad...this is bad... this is bad...oh, now look at the guns, those must be bad too. But even most of the stuff intended to work up the negative emotions was incorrect or used in misleading ways. And the bait and switch was ineffective on all but the already anti leaning audience members. The logic connecting them just wasn't there.
I don’t think Americans have a particularly violent culture, despite the media hype. I, for one, don't get into fist fights (well, once when I was about 8, but he had it coming
). I don't walk around angry or fearful or ready to blow the head off anyone who looks at me wrong. And I don't know anyone who does.emc
Member
One thing to keep in mind about ANY news or documentary film is that we do NOT know what winds up on the cutting room floor. Any video clip or sound bite taken out of context can have a drastically different meaning. The editing process is vitally important in regards to what any film or news story actually says. Who is to say that there isn't some very interesting tape sitting around Moore's office that was not included in BFC because it didn't say what he wanted to say? 
FWIW,
emc
FWIW,
emc
Mulliga
Member
Read that Hardy law site more closely. There appears to be evidence that Moore cut out parts of the interview, which, of course, I wouldn't put past him.
We all let it out a bit on the internet...obviously this isn't the only thing on THRers minds, but the forums are supposed to be about guns and RKBA, so naturally, the talk is focused on such things. Personally, I've never fired a gun at anybody at anytime, so for me shooting is a fun hobby to be obsessed about.
But, unlike most hobbies (except for things like camping/car repair/etc.), shooting is a practical endeavor, as well. You just never know, after all...
And here is a guy following Mike Moore-on around with a camera and making a movie. Except MM doesn't like it!
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/index.html
be sure to read the news tab and what MM thinks about small business.
here is a site that summarizes what i found to be true from querrying canadian Crime statistics...
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/canada.htm
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/index.html
be sure to read the news tab and what MM thinks about small business.
here is a site that summarizes what i found to be true from querrying canadian Crime statistics...
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/canada.htm
I agree
Could you have responded to MM questions better than Heston? I know I could have. Walking away from the interview wasn't much of an arguement, seems (to the viewer) like he was admitting a certain degree of guilt. But in his defense, maybe it's because of his medical condition.
MM didn't have anything "new" to add in his film. His "points" have been around at least since the 60's but they are still valid points. I found his "documentary" to be more anti-American culture than anti-gun. One of his "points" was that Canada has millions of firearms like the US yet suffers only a fraction of our murder rate per capita. Thats hardly an anti-gun sediment.
Could you have responded to MM questions better than Heston? I know I could have. Walking away from the interview wasn't much of an arguement, seems (to the viewer) like he was admitting a certain degree of guilt. But in his defense, maybe it's because of his medical condition.
No, Moore didn't add anything new - not to the discussion on crime or guns nor to the deceptive techniques of film makers.
Moore does however discuss some things that make 'knee jerk conservatives' (telewinz) a little uncomfortable - like the welfare to work programme that left a child without his mother. I don't know if that caused Flint - no-one does - but I bet it is closer to the truth than "he's criminal scum".
I'm afraid that regardless of cuts etc, Heston looked a little senile and not entirely in control of the arguments he was trying to make. Of course Moore flustered him and badgered him and cut the interview - who doesn't?
Homicide stats are not as simple as race. Is there a breakdown of the stats based on inner city/rural, employed/unemployed, drug users/non drug user? Even then you'd be skimming the surface of the real truth. Lies, damn lies and all that.
Moore does however discuss some things that make 'knee jerk conservatives' (telewinz) a little uncomfortable - like the welfare to work programme that left a child without his mother. I don't know if that caused Flint - no-one does - but I bet it is closer to the truth than "he's criminal scum".
I'm afraid that regardless of cuts etc, Heston looked a little senile and not entirely in control of the arguments he was trying to make. Of course Moore flustered him and badgered him and cut the interview - who doesn't?
Homicide stats are not as simple as race. Is there a breakdown of the stats based on inner city/rural, employed/unemployed, drug users/non drug user? Even then you'd be skimming the surface of the real truth. Lies, damn lies and all that.
Not in the least, I'm not responsible for the World, or someone else's actions. I readily accept that the World is imperfect and always will be. The mother is responsible for her position in life, not me. She must have made bad decisions in the past WHICH IS HER RIGHT TO DO. The majority of blame for that girls death lies with her mother not the government, the NRA, Heston or myself. Freedom means the right to make poor decisions as well as wise decisions and suffer/enjoy the results of those decisions. Claiming to be a victim does not grant immunity, it just passes the buck to a stranger with imperfect results.
Telewinz
Sorry I was accrediting the term 'knee jerk conservatives' to you so you get the flames and not me.
I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, except...
A close friend once lied to her father about where she was and what she was doing (she was 12 and was out 'clubbing'). She is now 18 and he is dying and refuses to acknowledge that he loves her because he has categorised her as a liar. He has locked the door shut on her because of a mistake she made once.
Sorry I was accrediting the term 'knee jerk conservatives' to you so you get the flames and not me.
I don't disagree with the rest of what you said, except...
A close friend once lied to her father about where she was and what she was doing (she was 12 and was out 'clubbing'). She is now 18 and he is dying and refuses to acknowledge that he loves her because he has categorised her as a liar. He has locked the door shut on her because of a mistake she made once.
deeply loves her
More likely he loves her so deeply that he can't cope with the idea that she is dying...the wall he built WILL come tumbling down, wait and see. Even a 12 year old is responsible for their actions (life is unfair) and suffers. The laws of nature do not give regard to the age printed on a person's ID card. Parents are intended to guide minors but they can't be insurance agents to cover every act a child does. They don't have the required god-like abilities.
In a large part I agree Tele, people have to take responsibility for their actions.
What I don't like is that some seem very happy to assign people to a certain group, be it liar or criminal, and think that they will never change and so they never need to worry about why they got there or how they can get out. The individual concerned needs to take the actions to get out, but society can't close the door. I see that attitude a little too much.
The answer - wish I had it. It isn't from the government I don't think.
What I don't like is that some seem very happy to assign people to a certain group, be it liar or criminal, and think that they will never change and so they never need to worry about why they got there or how they can get out. The individual concerned needs to take the actions to get out, but society can't close the door. I see that attitude a little too much.
The answer - wish I had it. It isn't from the government I don't think.
Stand_Watie
Member
That's true. Breaking things down by race however, does break the back of the myth that America has a high homicide rate because of guns. The parts of America that most closely resemble Canada (both geographically and demographically) have similar (in some instances lower) homicide rates than does the adjacent portions of Canada, despite far more guns and far fewer restrictions upon ownership or carrying of those guns. A very nice snapshot of this is a comparison done by L.G. Morrison
http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Gov/morrison2.html
"A Statistical Comparison Of Homicide Rates In The Prairie Provinces And Four American Border States, 1978 - 1992"
Here is a graph from the study
"Graphical Representations of Recent Rates of Homicide"
Figure 1 Northern Tier Western States, Prairie Provinces and Canada
Foreign Devil
Member
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2004
- Messages
- 507
The original question is why the anger.
I donot know the man personally, but he flat out lies. His lies are well documented and a matter of record, anybody can look them up. Even people sympathetic to him are admitting this. In the process he slanders gun owners, the NRA and America. To add insult to injury this work of his is touted as gospel and even required viewing in some college courses, and is believed wholly by many who have only a rudimentary understanding of the issues he raises.
So yes I am a little angry and I think it is justified.
I donot know the man personally, but he flat out lies. His lies are well documented and a matter of record, anybody can look them up. Even people sympathetic to him are admitting this. In the process he slanders gun owners, the NRA and America. To add insult to injury this work of his is touted as gospel and even required viewing in some college courses, and is believed wholly by many who have only a rudimentary understanding of the issues he raises.
So yes I am a little angry and I think it is justified.
longeyes
member
Fear is our friend. If it's fear of tyranny.
"2. Male blacks ARE feared much more than White males."
This one's true--and the people doing the fearing are mainly other blacks.
"2. Male blacks ARE feared much more than White males."
This one's true--and the people doing the fearing are mainly other blacks.
atek3
Member
When you think about individuals it seems crazy, "why should I fear the person standing next to me more because they have more melanin in their skin"? When you think statistically or about groups, "which group (white males or black males) is more likely to attack me" ? Suddenly that statement becomes more understandable.
atek3
Cosmoline
Member
Having watched this movie several times and debated it at great, great length on Moore's forum and then on IMDB, I have concluded that "Bowling for Columbine" is really about what all of MM's movies are about: MICHAEL MOORE. He could care less about firearms or gun control. He saw Columbine as a pile of blood and guts he could climb to get attention. Now he's got his people over in Iraq digging up dirt for his next project. HE isn't in Iraq, mind you. But you can bet his next film will show him standing there.
"BFC", when you really brake it down, makes NO points. Moore flashes intense images up on the screen and offers glib assertions which support the views of his leftist US and European audiences. The only conclusion he seems to draw is that the US is "ruled by fear." There is no support for this assertion, and the claim is probably too vague and broad to ever be supported. But that doesn't matter. What matters is he comes off looking like a hero to his chosen audience and he makes $$$$ off of them.
I respect Moore as a businessman, but frankly in fifty years nobody will remember anything about him or what he said. There's no substance to his arguments. Indeed he really doesn't even make arguments.
"BFC", when you really brake it down, makes NO points. Moore flashes intense images up on the screen and offers glib assertions which support the views of his leftist US and European audiences. The only conclusion he seems to draw is that the US is "ruled by fear." There is no support for this assertion, and the claim is probably too vague and broad to ever be supported. But that doesn't matter. What matters is he comes off looking like a hero to his chosen audience and he makes $$$$ off of them.
I respect Moore as a businessman, but frankly in fifty years nobody will remember anything about him or what he said. There's no substance to his arguments. Indeed he really doesn't even make arguments.
dustind
Member
Telewinz: Your last three posts where just beautiful.
Before I worked in a prison I would have agreed with that statement but 90% of my inmates will NEVER cut it on the outside unless the government gives them a generous amount of SSI. They were messed-up as kids and for the most part are beyond reforming. The only skill they have mastered is conning people and being a burden on society. These people will rob, rape and kill you and then demand their rights. FEAR these people, the 85% who come back into the system are not there for jay walking! You are their prey and they always attack first!
BTW..GOT MY CCW TODAY, #9 IN MY COUNTY
When I carry it will be a Kel-Tec .380
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