BP Pressure, CUP?

[ArmedBear]

I've heard that black powder will not rise above a certain pressure, no matter how much you overcharge a muzzleloader.

I also understand that black powder guns won't hold up to smokeless powder pressures.

But I have it on no good authority either way. Neither one smells quite right (with plenty of caveats of course).

Can anyone offer real information?

1. What is the peak CUP of a black powder load, or will it go up and up as you add powder?

2. What's a typical BP load pressure?

3. How does the pressure curve of a BP load differ from black-powder-like smokeless loads, e.g. a few grains of Trail Boss in a 19th-century cartridge and gun design, as used in CAS? Or does it differ?

4. Is it REALLY not possible to use a low-velocity, carefully-weighed charge of bulky low-pressure smokeless powder in a cap-n-ball revolver? Or is it just hard to do it safely, so we're told not to?

Any other comments...

Thanks to anyone who knows the real scoop on this stuff.

 

[mike6975]

try this site

maybe this site will help you they have different ballistic calculator programs,all you do is type in the info and press calculate.


Respectfully,

mike

http://stevespages.com/bvjtools.shtml

http://handloads.com/calc/index.html

http://www.zknives.com/bali/index.shtml

 

[RSVP2RIP]

As I understand the only production gun rated for smokless loads is the Savage ML10 series. It is also the only muzzleloader that I know of that is proofed at the factory. Your TC Encore barrel is not proofed at the factory and is not even fired until you load it up for the first time. This is why you should never use smokeless in a muzzleloader. According to the LymanBLack Powder Handbook 2nd ed. there are listed loads that develop over 25,000psi with a 370gr .50 caliber Maxi in front of 120gr of Pyrodex Select. Imagine the pressures if you short started it. I assume that the pressure curve from trail boss is sharper than BP but it peaks at the same level as BP. They realy didn't change the burn rate of the powder it's made from they made it into a donut shape to make it bulkier if that makes sense. And yes the more you load BP into the gun the more the pressure goes up because you have to factor in the resistance of the powder column that is being pushed up the barrel as it is burning behind it as well as the increase of gasses being added to the mix as it burns. This is an old wives tale about not being able to over load a muzzleloader. As far as the C&B revolver is concerned, I personally would be very hesetant to load anything that is not BP or substitute in it as the steel they are made from are not the strongest. If the S&W X Frame was made into a C&B I think I might try some smokeless in it but why bother. Try using Goex Pinnacale, lots less smoke and hardly any mess compared to BP plus no sulfur smell if you want that.

 

[Gatofeo]

"You can't overload a muzzleloader if you use black powder," is an old shooter's tale that is wrong. Dead wrong.
If I recall correctly, back in the 1970s Lyman tried to put this fable to rest by loading barrels with ridiculous amounts of black powder. Some charges included two patched balls atop the charge.
Conical bullets were also used with charges of black powder far beyond the recommended limits.
The result: barrels were bulged (with both single and double-bullet loads) and pressures were recorded that were clearly far beyond the design limitations of black powder guns.
Some might argue that the modern inline negates this test but I wouldn't. Not all inlines are built the same nor have the same strength.
The Savage (a pox on those who designed such an abomination) will probably take extremely heavy charges of black powder but I sure wouldn't risk my eyes, hearing or living flesh to prove it.
There are reasons why gun manufacturers warn about the abuse of their products.
If a ballistician with an advanced degree in one of the sciences, and access to the most modern equipment extant, tells me not to do something -- I'm gonna believe him.

 

[unspellable]

Aside from blowing up or damaging the gun with smokeless, excessive pressure will blow the cap off the nipple and spray crap around. One of the reasons for shooting glasses.

Smokeless is harder to ignite and a cap and nipple is usally not up to the job.

Black powder is always lightly compressed. Smokeless loads often require seating the bullet to specific depth with an air space. Tricky for fools who don't believe in following directions.

Over pressure signs in primers, brass, and extraction may not be totally reliable, but you don't get them at all with a front stuffer.

Now in the UK, cartridge hand guns are pretty much a no no. Black powder does not win friends in an indoor range. Hence they modify a Ruger Old Army with a new cylinder fitted with a device containing a primer in place of the nipples and run smokeless. This would obviously require due diligence in measuring the charge and controlling seating depth.

 

[unspellable]

PS: In DGJ there is an article in which Trail Boss is compared to BP in a cartridge rifle. With Trail boss loads producing the same velocity as the standard BP load the pressure ran much higher. Keep in mind Trail Boss is intended for reduced loads in fire arms meant for smokeless pressures, not as a BP substitute.

 

[1858rem]

far as caplocks go, i was pretty sure the nipple would be the failure point and they disigned the stronger inline breech system to handle the heavier 150g charges. as far as max pressure produced by bp, i had read in one of sam fadalas books of actual recorded pressures in excess of 50000psi, and less credable reports of 250000psi in lab tests.....i think smokeless can reacu up to 200000psi also, and the way i understand it smokeless has a longer stronger pressure curve, and bp is generally a quick, relatively weak pressure curve....not sure about that though.