BPC reloading lessons?

[mr16ga]

As I have stated before I am long time BP shooter but new to BPC reloading.
Here is a few things I have garnered from a lot of reading.
1. fill the ctg leaving enough room to seat the bullet with some compression
2. use an over powder wad and a grease cookie
3. use a powder drop tube or a vibrator of some sort to settle the BP
4. don't fool with reduced powder loads (don't leave an air gap)
5. wash and dry brass ASAP after a shooting session.
6. let a newly loaded ctg. sit for a few weeks to let them settle. (supposed to lower the SD.)

Are the above statements correct?

I know there is a debate on Magnum primers v.s. regular primers. I read some data in "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West" to use large pistol primers in .45-75 WCF. I also read somewhere that it does not matter what primer you use at all. What is the straight skinny on this issue?

 

[Phantom Captain]

I use CCI Large pistol and large rifle primers in my BP cartridges and have had no problems with them. I reload for .45 Colt pistol and .45-70 rifle.

One thing I don't do is use an over powder card, wad or grease cookie. I do however use SPG lube to lube my bullets (hand cast, soft lead) and feel that is good enough for me.

My loads are

.45 Colt, I use a .452 caliber 250 grain soft lead bullet thrown from a Lyman mold and pan lube with SPG. I load 30 grains of Goex 3f.

.45-70, I use a .458 caliber 405 grain soft lead bullet thrown from a Lyman mold and hand lube with SPG. I load 60 grains of Goex 2f.

These are good enough for me punching paper and haven't really tweaked too much for bench rested accuracy. I'm shooting them out of a Beretta Stampede SAA clone and an Uberti Richards-Mason 1871 Conversion of an 1860 Army with a 5.5" barrel. The rifle is an original Springfield Model 1873 made and stamped in 1884. They do the job just fine and are definitely minute of target paper for the ranges I'm shooting. Usually around 7-10 yards for the pistol (basically 2" groups offhand, sometimes better depending on the day and my concentration) and 25-50 yards with the rifle. The rifle is minute of pie plate offhand at those distances.

 

[Foto Joe]

1. fill the ctg leaving enough room to seat the bullet with some compression

Try to avoid using the bullet to compress the powder/filler.

2. use an over powder wad and a grease cookie

If you use Black Powder lubed bullets, the grease cookie can go away. This also lessons the possibility of the grease cookie soaking through the veggie wad and fouling the powder.

3. use a powder drop tube or a vibrator of some sort to settle the BP
4. don't fool with reduced powder loads (don't leave an air gap)

A drop tube isn't necessary if you do decide to shoot reduced charge loads. Simply use an over-powder veggie wad then fill the brass with cornmeal, compress and seat the bullet. You will probably find that the reduced powder loads can yield exceptional accuracy results. A 44-40 cartridge with only 25gr of 3f makes a HUGE boom when it goes off as well. It has more to do with the projectile weight than the powder charge (my opinion).

Reduced charge loads have some other advantages as well. They don't eat as much powder, the gun stays cooler and the fouling of the cylinder pin is reduced as well.

5. wash and dry brass ASAP after a shooting session.

ASAP isn't all that important if you are tumbling the brass. I have been known to dump unwashed Black Powder cartridges into my tumbler but it's pretty hard on the media. I use a baby bottle "Nipple" brush to swab out the inside of the brass after it has soaked in hot water with Dawn dishwashing soap. I rinse with hot water and air-dry the brass on paper towels before tumbling.

One of the main reasons you want to wash that brass is that you don't need acidic Black Powder residue inside your dies for obvious reasons.

let a newly loaded ctg. sit for a few weeks to let them settle. (supposed to lower the SD.)

I've never heard of this one before. What does SD stand for?

Comments

You don't state whether you are using real Black Powder or a substitute. If you're using the real thing, don't sweat the primers. Real Black Powder ignites very easily, Pyrodex not so much but you probably still wouldn't need magnum primers.

One of the things that you can add to your list of lessons is: Especially with 45 Colt there shouldn't be a need to resize the brass. I re-size NO pistol brass that has been used with Black Powder. I do however check it from time to time before I reload to make sure nothing has changed. It would suck to find out that I have 50 45 Colt or 44-40 rounds that wouldn't fit in the gun.

 

[Phantom Captain]

I agree with a lot of what Foto Joe is saying here as well. I don't really use a drop tube for any of my cartridges and never heard of letting them sit after loading to settle either.

On the used brass aspect... Here's a little trick I learned which works great. After shooting I bring the brass home and leave them in water overnight. After taking them out and rinsing them off I then put them in a jar of vinegar overnight. Yep, just plain old white vinegar. It really does the trick! After a day I take them out, rinse them and let em dry then throw em in the tumbler, they come out bright and shiny like new!

 

[arcticap]

What does SD stand for?

SD stands for standard deviation with regard to chronograph measurements of the velocity of a group of fired projectiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

 

[Jim Watson]

My usage for BPCR Metallic Silhouette and Midrange with a single shot:

1. fill the ctg leaving enough room to seat the bullet with some compression

I use a compression die to avoid distorting the bullet by compressing powder in the seating step.

2. use an over powder wad and a grease cookie

I use an over powder card wad but no grease cookie. But I am shooting a single shot at the rate of about a round a minute with time to blow tube between shots.

3. use a powder drop tube or a vibrator of some sort to settle the BP

I use a drop tube but not a vibrator. Why? Because the Master class shooter who taught me said to. Kind of like casting a magical spell, I don't know what is necessary and what it will hurt to leave out.

4. don't fool with reduced powder loads (don't leave an air gap)

I don't fool with reduced loads because I am shooting 200 metres to 600 yards.

5. wash and dry brass ASAP after a shooting session.

I decap on the range and drop the brass in a jug of soapy water. When I get home I rinse off the soap and wet tumble it in ceramic media. It comes out brighter than new.

6. let a newly loaded ctg. sit for a few weeks to let them settle. (supposed to lower the SD.)

That is just plain weird.

 

[Foto Joe]

After shooting I bring the brass home and leave them in water overnight. After taking them out and rinsing them off I then put them in a jar of vinegar overnight.

Okay, somebody needs to explain this one to me. I'm sure it works and I advocate people to use methods which work for them, even if others don't appreciate their particular method. I understand that there a numerous folks who use Windex with Vinegar in it and swear by it.

Here's what is confusing me though:
Black Powder residue is acidic. Vinegar is acidic. It would make more sense to me to drop the brass into a bucket with a baking soda solution in it rather than vinegar. As a side note: when I recently de-blued a '51, after soaking the parts in white vinegar, I dropped them into a baking soda solution to stop the acidic reaction on the parts.

So somebody humor me and explain how vinegar works to clean BP residue, at least on brass.

Thanks

 

[mr16ga]

The letting the BP CTG's sit for a while after loading comes form an article I read talking about how old is too old for shooting them, the CTG's. The author had some rounds that were 10 years old and some of various other ages less than 10 years and some new rounds loaded that day. The results seemed to indicate that rounds that sat longer than two weeks all had a lower SD than newly reloaded rounds. Since the author did all the reloading I assume that he loaded all of them about the same. I don't know if the difference is SD is of importance or not but I do know in general the lower the SD the tighter the group.

 

[ClemBert]

+1 on what Foto Joe said.

When you say BPC I assume you are talking about Black Powder Cartridge. Pyrodex, 777, AP, and other substitutes are BP substitutes NOT Black Powder. With that clear here are my thoughts.

1. fill the ctg leaving enough room to seat the bullet with some compression

Depending on what your cartridge is I'd recommend a minimum of 1/8" to 3/16" compression. That's a MINIMUM I said!

2. use an over powder wad and a grease cookie

Use a 0.030 fiber wad or equivalent on top of the powder especially if you use a grease cookie.

3. use a powder drop tube or a vibrator of some sort to settle the BP

A drop tube is only necessary if you can't get the powder you've measured to fit into the casing. If you can get the BP in there but it's sitting too high then use a compression plug to push it down. A bullet makes a poor compression plug. Vibrating is not necessary but it won't hurt anything if you just want to be kinky with your cartridges.

4. don't fool with reduced powder loads (don't leave an air gap)

Reduce the load if you'd like. Don't forget the filler and don't reduce the load so much that your performance actually suffers.

5. wash and dry brass ASAP after a shooting session.

Foto Joe raises a good question. I am one who uses a solution of 25% vinegar and 75% water to rinse my casings when I get home. Basically, mix it all together for 10 or 15 minutes then shake it in the solution. Then rinse it all off with water. Interestingly enough I note that a gas is created when the spent brass and solution come into contact with each other.

6. let a newly loaded ctg. sit for a few weeks to let them settle. (supposed to lower the SD.)

...."Twilight Zone" music playing.....

 

[Foto Joe]

I am one who uses a solution of 25% vinegar and 75% water to rinse my casings when I get home. Basically, mix it all together for 10 or 15 minutes then shake it in the solution. Then rinse it all off with water. Interestingly enough I note that a gas is created when the spent brass and solution come into contact with each other.

ClemBert, yer killin' me!!!:banghead: WHY????

If it works, that's great!! It's got to be easier than what I do I'm sure. My process happens to be, when I get a round tuit, I put probably a teaspoon of Dawn into a stainless bowl and fill it with hot water. I then drop the brass in and shake it around a bit to make sure the air bubbles are out of the brass. It soaks there until I get another round tuit (usually an hour or so), then I take my baby bottle nipple brush to the inside of each one. Then rinse with hot water and let dry for at least 24 hours before I put them in the tumbler. This whole process is probably more labor intensive than cleaning the guns depending upon how many cartridges have been fired. I learned the hard way not to take 200 rounds with me when I go shoot.

I did a little search on the World Wide Web looking for what the reaction would be if you mixed acedic acid (vinegar) with sulphur. About the only thing that I did come up with was a treatment for acne, not something a person my age worries too much about. I'd be curious as to what the gas you're getting is. I'm guessing that mixing all the by-products of combustion together with vinegar might give you some hydrogen sulphide (h2s). Maybe we can get one our chemists here to delve into this mystery a bit more. That and answer the question of why using an acid (vinegar) to help neutralize and remove an acid (hydrochloric acid from BP residue) seems to work.

I apolagize for the hijack on this thread. I've posted a New Thread addressing this question.

 

[ClemBert]

I'd be curious as to what the gas you're getting is. I'm guessing that mixing all the by-products of combustion together with vinegar might give you some hydrogen sulphide (h2s).

I'm not sure what the gas is but it is notable because I typical do this soaking in a closed tupperware container. The expanding gas bloats the container as it soaks. Clearly, the sulfur is a component because the gas does have the distinct smell of rotten eggs.

As to the use of a vinegar/water solution to clean BP residue off of brass casings it is something that someone somewhere on one of these forums suggested. If I wasn't soooo lazy or had enjoyed college chemistry more I'd probably take the time to figure this out. However, some smart fella is going to jump in on this discussion at some point and enlighten us all.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I loaded a card wad and grease cookie and compressed the powder slightly with the bullet when seating it. After shooting, we knocked out the primers and dumped them in a plastic jar and poured cheap generic diet soda over them, add a couple drops of detergent and let them that way until we got home. Then we washed them.

I use one of these to load:

 

[scrat]

Where the heck did you find that. WOW thats a find.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I keep an eye out for old reloading tools. They have become quite the collector's item lately. 20 years ago, they were a few dollars each depending on the caliber. I have about 40 of the old Ideal tools, a couple Pope style straight line seaters, some old Belding and Mull's, etc. Many years ago, I bought a Remington Rolling block rifle in 50-70. I wanted to shoot it so very badly, but ammo was non-existent unless you bought old collector's stuff. Dixie sold moulds. I carefully made a straight line bullet seater out of rock maple, which took hours and worked for a year or two. At the big Baltimore Antque Gun show I found an Ideal Tool for the 50-70 complete with mold. It cost me $20 (probably worth $500 now) When it saw how great it worked for an old cartridge, I started buying more such tools for 45-70, 38-55, etc. Especially since they were just a couple dollars each then. They still come up on the gun auctions and depending on the cartridge are $25 or so. A popular rifle caliber brings more. There must have been thousands of them sold in the WCF calibers because they seem the most common. (32-20, 38-40, 44-40) Most companies actually sold the tools for their guns. Some are extremely rare. Ideal, Marlin, Winchester, Maynard, Pope, Sharps, all sold reloading tools. A rare one is a Belding and Mull bronze nut cracker tool. Or an original Pope or any parts thereof. Remington sold some tools but mostly for shot gun shells. At any one time ebay has a dozen or so old reloading tools listed. Last I saw a 50-70 Ideal tool listed it brought $800. An 11mm Mauser tool brought over $380.

My daughter uses an Ideal 38 S&W tool to load 38 Special cases with black powder for her small Martini rifle. It looks just like the picture above.

Lyman still offers aluminum handles that take interchangeable dies for several calibers. (Few people realize that the Lyman Trueline dies fit the Lyman handles. At one time the Trueline dies were available in about 50 different cartridges. My Dad has the Trueline bench top press with about 20 die sets.)

 

[SifuGun]

4. don't fool with reduced powder loads (don't leave an air gap)


I have used Hodgdon Trail Boss with good success in my 7mm rem mag. And yes there is an air gap but it works if you stay in the specificaitons. I subed Fed 215 primers for the one they called for and it all worked out great. See if they have your caliber here :
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

 

[batteran]

I agree with winegar ^^: it work very well in cases cleaning.

One of the first thing I think I can recommand in BP cartridges reloading (OK, for rifles) is:

http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

complete and very interressing

 

[Fingers McGee]

I load BPC primarily for CAS competition and not any kind of long range or silhouette shooting; so, responses reflect my procedures for that.

1. fill the ctg leaving enough room to seat the bullet with some compression

I fill the case leaving room for about 1/8 inch compression when seating the bullet

2. use an over powder wad and a grease cookie

Nope. I use big lube cast bullets filled with a BP lube

3. use a powder drop tube or a vibrator of some sort to settle the BP

Unnecessary

4. don't fool with reduced powder loads (don't leave an air gap)

Correct

5. wash and dry brass ASAP after a shooting session.

Dump expended brass in jug with plain hot water when I get home from a match. Aggitate and drain a couple times till water runs semi clear, then fill jug with plain water and it sits till the jug gets filled with brass (three or four matches) air dry & put in vibratroy cleaner till shiney

6. let a newly loaded ctg. sit for a few weeks to let them settle. (supposed to lower the SD.)

As was said earlier - that's just weird. With that said, I usually reload 400-500 rounds or more in a reloading session. I do a couple thousand during the winter that will last me through the CAS shooting seson. That results in them sitting for a period of time before use; so.........................

 

[NineMilePete]

I pretty much know the routine for cleaning my cap and ball revolvers after a shooting session.
I've loaded up some black-powder 45 colt loads for my single action army.
What measures do you use to clean the cartridge revolver after shooting??
muchos gracias

 

[mr16ga]

I pretty much know the routine for cleaning my cap and ball revolvers after a shooting session.
I've loaded up some black-powder 45 colt loads for my single action army.
What measures do you use to clean the cartridge revolver after shooting??
muchos gracias

1. deprime

2. boil, (simmer) the cases for 5 min in soapy water ( it stinks )

3. then use a test tube brush to scrub them out.

4. rinse well

5. use a tumbler to make them shine.

 

[makos_goods]

16ga,
I tend to agree with most of the other posters here, I'm like Fingers. I'm heavy into CAS, but there is one club that has long range shoots, so I do load some non-bulk loading.

• I don't use grease cookies, but if I did on a long range rifle cartridge I would add a dry wad or cardboard wad to keep the grease cookie from sticking to the base. I use bullets with sufficiently large groove to hold BP lube. For my CAS loads I exclusively use Big Lube Bullets which have LOTS of lube.
• I clean my brass after sessions using ceramic media, it really isn't important when I clean it.
• Except for my precision long range loads I cram as much powder into the case as possible. I try for 1/8" of compression. With pistol cartridges (or pistol class cartridges used in rifles) you need the pressure and the compression helps the curve. This limits blow back and keeps the weapons cleaner. For my precision cartridges I use a drop tube primarily because I don't want the powder to settle anymore after loading and the loads that show the most accuracy may have minimal compression. But all of my loads have compression.

Oh there is one more thing, I don't let my cartridges sit for a few weeks before shooting them. I have found they feel like they have been abandoned and may become social deviants if you just set them aside. I find if I talk to them every few days they do fine. Sometimes I sing to them on the way to a match and I give them a little pep talk before sending them down range. This does wonders for my groups and I have yet to have one go rogue on me.

~Mako

 

[mykeal]

I don't shoot BPC, so I can't really answer his question directly, but I think you may have missed what he was looking for:

What measures do you use to clean the cartridge revolver after shooting??

Now, I'll make the assumption that one cleans a black powder cartridge revolver in the same manner and with the same materials that one would use with a percussion revolver - apologies if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will point it out.

I remove the cylinder and wash it in warm, clear water, swab the chambers with water soaked patches, then dry with clean dry cloth and patches. Swab with alcohol patches to remove water the dry patches didn't get, then swab with Barricade. Repeat the process with the barrel and frame. Internal action parts are removed, cleaned, dried and oiled the same way about every third to fifth session.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Oh there is one more thing, I don't let my cartridges sit for a few weeks before shooting them. I have found they feel like they have been abandoned and may become social deviants if you just set them aside. I find if I talk to them every few days they do fine. Sometimes I sing to them on the way to a match and I give them a little pep talk before sending them down range. This does wonders for my groups and I have yet to have one go rogue on me.

I always wondered about you Mako. Now I'm sure of it.

Fingers

 

[Noz]

You don't sing to your brass?


I'm laying off of Mako for a while. I finally got under his skin.

 

[makos_goods]

Noz,
Are you talking about the comment you made on the Darksider's Den agreeing with my statement about me being anal? Or, something else?

That didn't bother me, but if I see you, I'll stare at you so hard your dog will yelp...

Seriously, you think you got under my skin? I'll confess that you, Hellgate, Fingers and a bunch of others DO NOT get under my skin. I consider you knowledgeable friends.

Besides, how could I stay mad at someone who looks so cute in braids...

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36586.msg469119.html#msg469119

Now back to the subject of putting your reloads at ease. While it is very important to make sure they don't feel ignored it is also important not to startle them. Singing is sort of a warm up and gets them in the mood. Ignored ammunition gets lethargic and lacks power, BUT startled ammo can be the same. Fright can release ACTH chemical messengers which quikly peak and then the energy is spent. There is nothing worse than a droopy cartridge...

~Mako

 

[Fingers McGee]

What measures do you use to clean the cartridge revolver after shooting??
muchos gracias

I use the same procedures that I'd use when cleaning a revolver that was used with smokeless powder. I'd just use Balistol and water instead of a nitro solvent and Remoil. Spraying the chambers & down the barrel with Balistol and letting it sit for a couple days will loosen the fouling so it comes out easily. After cleaning, lube and preserve with straight Balistol, and, for Colt style conversions and open tops, Bore Butter on the arbor is still derigueur. For SAAs, Balistol on the base pin.

Besides, how could I stay mad at someone who looks so cute in braids...

PLEASE................... don't encourage him.

As far as keeping my reloads at ease, By the time i get around to using them, they're probably asleep. Maybe there is some benefit to gently rousing them so they can perform their duty (making steel ring) in an accurate and efficient manner. I guess I'll have to try it out sometime soon.

FM