Branch Post Office Carry?

[wyocarp]

I have something for everyone to ponder. Next to my store, is a gas station that has quit selling gas for the time being, but is still a regular small store with drinks and snacks and stuff.

The problem is this, when one walks in the front door, the store is to the left and if one walks 12 feet to the right, there is a counter for a branch post office.

So, this post office is on private property, not government property. So, can someone carry in the store part?

Can someone carry right up to the counter but not do post office business?

Can someone carry right up to the counter and conduct post office business since it is private property?

 

[andcam]

I have no idea...but I'd like to know too!

 

[TAB]

Thats a very intresting question.

 

[CleverNickname]

IANAL, but I'd go with "carry right up to the counter and conduct post office business since it is private property".

18 USC 930(g)(1) says: "The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties."

Unless there's something clearly showing otherwise, I would assume the post office starts where the counter begins, as that's the only part that's leased by the feds.

Or you could just not worry about it.

 

[ShadyScott999]

I didn't vote because I have no idea.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I have the same situation in Jacksonville. A "post office" located inside our local pharmacy staffed by non civil servants. No problem.

 

[chris in va]

Now the official post office had a no guns sign next to the counter.

But the curio shop that sells snow globes, cheap wall decorations and knives also has a post office in the back with a scale and computer. No 'no guns' sign to be found anywhere.

Wish someone would come up with a definite answer on this one.

 

[NavyLCDR]

No part of 18 USC 930 applies to the post office.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It's in 39 CFR 232.1:

§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property. This section shall not apply to—

(i) Any portions of real property, owned or leased by the Postal Service, that are leased or subleased by the Postal Service to private tenants for their exclusive use;

(ii) With respect to sections 232.1(h)(1) and 232.1(o), sidewalks along the street frontage of postal property falling within the property lines of the Postal Service that are not physically distinguishable from adjacent municipal or other public sidewalks, and any paved areas adjacent to such sidewalks that are not physically distinguishable from such sidewalks.

No part of the store forward of the post office counter is under control of the Postal Service. Only the part of the store that a Postal employee can restrict your access to, the area behind the counter. Therefore, unless you go behind the counter and enter property under the Post Office's control, the firearms ban does NOT apply within the store. Also, to be in compliance with the posting requirements, they should have a sign posted at the actual entrance to the area they do control.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Or if it is Buford Colorado (Or was it wyoming?) with a population of two, altitude 8,000 feet and three buildings. One a private residence, one a combination PO, PX, Diner and one a storage shed.

The PO part of the building is just inside the front door.

Riddle me that LOL. I have the photo too... I will find, scan and post it later on.

 

[wyocarp]

Well, Buford is another one, and it is in Wyoming.

 

[Ben86]

It sounds like it should be at least legal for the "store" part. My post office has no "no gun" sign. Does that mean it might be legal under state law?

 

[NavyLCDR]

My post office has no "no gun" sign. Does that mean it might be legal under state law?

Nope. It's Federal law. You cannot posses a firearm on Post Office Property, including stored in your vehicle in the parking lot. State law cannot change or "waive" that restriction.

39 CFR 232.1

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

The notwithstanding clause means that any other laws allowing carrying of weapons, such as CCW permit laws, have no affect to allow a person to possess a firearm on post office property. Official purposes, for the common citizen, is to mail the firearm itself.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Navy Lt:

I disagree....

Our local Post Office is in a strip plaza. No part of it's parking lot is under their direct control except a secured area in the rear of the plaza used to store Post Office vehicles.... Matter of fact, the outer lobby isn't posted, either. When they had signs up, they were at the door to the inner lobby.... My take on that has always been "who cares"....

My take on the whole thing (IANAL!) is that here in OH, Post Office carry is strictly forbidden within the Post Office itself, by Ohio Law. The Federal law seems to exempt licensees.... (Don't ask me for a cite, it's been a while.)

I also hold that "official purposes" with respect to the parking lot, probably can be held to include a licensee "passing through" or even stopping to mail a letter. I think, too, that it could be read to include actually carrying in the Post Office.... 'Course, I could be wrong....

Which leads to a bit of silliness.... I'm an eStamps.com user. (I rarely have to visit a real post office.) However, as such, I'm a branch post office. Does that mean I can't carry in my own office, or must I disarm when visiting their web site?

For the OP, the "branch office" in a gas station or stop&rob is fine.... I see no problem with the parking lots at "real" Post Offices.... Don't take the gun into those buildings....

Regards,

 

[NavyLCDR]

No part of it's parking lot is under their direct control except a secured area in the rear of the plaza

Since the plaza parking lot is not under Post Office control, weapons carrying and storage in the parking lot would not be banned by the post office regulation.

The Federal law seems to exempt licensees.... (Don't ask me for a cite, it's been a while.)

There is no exemption for license holders. The wording of the CFR in two places specifically indicates that it DOES apply to CPL holders:

§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, and to all persons entering in or on such property...

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed

I also hold that "official purposes" with respect to the parking lot, probably can be held to include a licensee "passing through" or even stopping to mail a letter. I think, too, that it could be read to include actually carrying in the Post Office.... 'Course, I could be wrong....

1. It would seem that you might be confusing "lawful purposes" with "official purpose".

2. Official purpose refers to the act of carrying or storing the firearm, not to the presence of the individual.

Which leads to a bit of silliness.... I'm an eStamps.com user. (I rarely have to visit a real post office.) However, as such, I'm a branch post office. Does that mean I can't carry in my own office, or must I disarm when visiting their web site?

Not unless the real property of your house or driveway is under the control of the post office.

I see no problem with the parking lots at "real" Post Off

Again the specific wording in two places in the CFR would indicate that the parking lot is affected:

§ 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under the charge and control of the Postal Service,

(l) Weapons and explosives . Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property

Additionally, as evidence that the parking lot is under the control of the postal service, note this requirement in the same CFR:

(k) Vehicular and pedestrian traffic. (1) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall be in possession of a current and valid state or territory issued driver's license and vehicle registration, and the vehicle shall display all current and valid tags and licenses required by the jurisdiction in which it is registered.

(2) Drivers who have had their privilege or license to drive suspended or revoked by any state or territory shall not drive any vehicle in or on property during such period of suspension or revocation.

(3) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall drive in a careful and safe manner at all times and shall comply with the signals and directions of security force personnel, other authorized individuals, and all posted traffic signs.

(4) The blocking of entrances, driveways, walks, loading platforms, or fire hydrants in or on property is prohibited.

(5) Parking without authority, parking in unauthorized locations or in locations reserved for other persons, or continuously in excess of 18 hours without permission, or contrary to the direction of posted signs is prohibited. This section may be supplemented by the postmaster or installation head from time to time by the issuance and posting of specific traffic directives as may be required. When so issued and posted such directives shall have the same force and effect as if made a part hereof.

The parking lot is theirs to regulate.

 

[GonHuntin]

Interesting discussion........funny thing.......it is perfectly legal to carry a firearm into a post office to mail it.........the first time I mailed a firearm, I went inside, told them what I wanted to do and asked how to do it since it is against federal law to carry a firearm onto post office property.......they said as long as it was packaged in a sealed box it was legal........

 

[Sam Boca]

Gonhuntin - was that a handgun or long gun you were mailing?

 

[gc70]

there is a counter for a branch post office

A "post office" located inside our local pharmacy staffed by non civil servants.

There are private facilities that perform postal functions under contract to the USPS, as well as mini-facilities operated by the USPS.

USPS Partners Programs

Contract Postal Unit (CPU)

These units provide full service retail products and services to postal customers at U.S. Postal Service prices. They are housed within a partner facility and are operated and managed by partner employees.

Retailers that participate in the Contract Postal Unit program are provided USPS branding rights and signage. A build-out that meets postal regulations is required. Partners are limited to selling only USPS products and services (exception: money orders and P.O. boxes are not available at these locations). Contract Postal Unit partners are compensated based on performance. Operating a Contract Postal Unit increases foot traffic and provides additional customer convenience. Consider becoming a USPS Contract Postal Unit partner today! Email us at [email protected] for more information.

Post Office Express (POE)

Post Office Express is a complete postal retail unit operated by USPS employees but located within a partner facility. Major grocery store chains have proven successful in this arena.

Retailers that participate in the Post Office Express program are provided USPS branding rights and signage. A particular build-out is required to provide a universal look and feel. Retailers are limited to selling only USPS products and services and they are required to sell 100 percent of USPS offerings, including money orders. Post Office Express does not charge additional fees for mailings or services. The monetary exchange is traditionally based on lease space. Operating a Post Office Express increases foot traffic and provides additional customer convenience.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

What am I supposed to do with my firearm prior to entering their parking lot? And the sign at the counter. Why isn't it near the entrance for all to see???

 

[NavyLCDR]

What am I supposed to do with my firearm prior to entering their parking lot? And the sign at the counter. Why isn't it near the entrance for all to see???

351 Winchester,

If you are talking about this:

I have the same situation in Jacksonville. A "post office" located inside our local pharmacy staffed by non civil servants. No problem.

Then,
A. You aren't supposed to do anything with your firearm prior to entering their parking lot. The parking lot belongs to the pharmacy, not the post office.

B. You aren't supposed to do anything about the sign at the counter (if there is one). The space in front of the counter also belongs to the pharmacy, not the post office. Only the space behind the counter is under the control of the post office.

In the situation you described above, it is perfectly legal for you to have your firearm in the parking lot and all the way up to the counter, located within the pharmacy. None of that property is under the control of the post office.

Now, if you are speaking about a "real" post office, if you are armed, your only legal option is to park on the street, leave your gun in the car, on the street, walk across the parking lot unarmed and do your business in the post office unarmed. All I am saying is that is the legal thing to do, what you actually feel is reasonable and safe to do is your own business.

As for the posting requirements, yeah, I know, they are horrible at most post offices. I have never seen the signs here at ours in Oak Harbor. Someone has said they have seen them in the middle of the lobby in amongst the PO Boxes, but there is no sign at the entrance to the parking lot, the entrance to the lobby part of the building, nor the entrance to the counter portion of the building. So, in Oak Harbor, I would assume they just don't care that much about it. I have even written to the postmaster mentioning the discrepancy and got no response.

 

[Ferdinand III]

Lets be absurd for a moment.
Whats the point of no carry in a post office?
A. I won't rob the counter gnome.
B. I won't get pissed at the counter gnome and shoot him/her.
C. If someone is robbing the counter gnome I'll let the Postal Police handle it and go about my biz.
D. If the counter gnome goes postal I won't shoot back.

Untill they put metal detectors in the Post Office I ain't gonna worry about it.
Tho I probably wouldn't pull my gun unless I was threatened.
Let the counter gnomes pull their own gun.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Whats the point of no carry in a post office?...

simple -- to avoid committing a federal felony. If you are caught, you might be able to avoid going to jail; but you will almost certainly lose the right to possess guns. You may get caught if you trip, or if someone brushes up against you and makes your gun or in perhaps many other ways. The unexpected has a way of happening, especially when the consequences are undesirable.

But what the heck. It's not my freedom that's at stake. Do as you wish. It's not my problem.

 

[Ferdinand III]

That is begging the question.
Is banning guns in a post office going to keep a someone intent on harm not doing it?
But it will all be moot anyway when the Post Office goes under and we all mail using UPS

 

[TAB]

There are 5 govement agencys you don't mess with...

1 FAA
2 AFT
3 IRS
4 USPS
5 DOD


None of them play fair or use lube.

 

[NavyLCDR]

but you will almost certainly lose the right to possess guns

I don't think so. The Federal law prohibition against firearms possession is for crimes that carry more than a one year sentence. Infractions against 39 CFR 232.1 only carry a maximum jail sentence of 30 days and a fine of not more than $50.

I still won't take the chance, myself, though.