Brass ejection can have lethal outcome.

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Hummer70

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I was researching something else and stumbled on an old thread about brass ejection from ARs and M16s and tried to respond but it was 1124 days old and it would not let me comment. As indicated later information can change things and I thought this might be good to know.

The NRA highpower rules prohibit interferance with another shooter. Thusly if you are at a match and you are being peppered with hot brass complain to the range officer.

The normal ejection pattern of the AR15 and M16A1 was 2:00 to 5:00.

For years I have "potty trained" my ARs to eject brass between 1:00 and 2:00.

The ejection pattern having dire outcomes for nearby shooters was addressed in the Aberdeen Proving Ground Testing conducted in 1982/3.

http://gunhub.com/ar15/45709-design-flaw-m16a2.html Scroll down to 1983

Here is a copy/paste article that was posted on the Army Safety Center Website on hot brass injuries
 
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Please remember to post only a summary of articles from elsewhere, with a link- and, hopefully, your own input.

Copying an article from elsewhere and posting it here- unless specifically allowed by the source- is a violation of Federal law.

John
 
Not sure about the lethality of hot bras, but as a former Army Medic, I treated a few soldiers that had hot brass eject into their eye. This mainly happened during live fire exercises when the soldiers were in the back of a vehicle and firing at targets as they are driven down range.

One soldier in particular did not remove his contact lens despite our safety brief. The hot brass melted the contact lens and it took us some creativity to stop the burn and remove it while enroute to the ER.
 
Interesting info. I can imagine its worth making various changes to hardware and software to avoid these situations.

However I have to take issue with the term "involuntary".

Many of us have scars from hot brass. I've had plenty go into my shirt etc. the worst was a piece that fell into my sandal and stuck on top of my foot. Ouch. But I NEVER lost control of my muzzle as a result.

I have see it though. I was in a big name carbine class two lanes down from someone who didn't belong there. dude caught a piece of brass in his collar and launched a round into the dirt a few feet from the guy between us. It wasn't involuntary though. It was negligent.
 
Excellent post. Fortunately, I'm very cognizant of of my brass if for no other reason than common courtesy. If my adjacent shooter isn't then I politely inform them of where their brass is going and move to another spot. If I see another shooter approach my old spot I let them know to watch out for hot brass and inform the ranger of the situation.
 
if I had to live every day with this type of thinking where every mundane thing you do can kill you life even if the odds are 6 trillion to one I would hang myself
 
Probably my favorite characteristic of the VZ.58 is the upward/forward ejection angle.
 
Why you need a brimmed hat when shooting...

I had a hot case from a pistol drop between the frame of my protective eyewear and my forehead. I was fortunate that it came to rest below my eye socket and not on my eyeball.

I was proud that I maintained muzzle direction discipline under the circumstances.
 
Any time I'm shooting my Mini-14 at the range, I use a brass catcher set up beside me. I don't suppose that would work if you're changing position frequently, but I know my Ruger throws brass pretty far. It's only courteous to use something to keep it confined. Besides, it makes finding the brass easy!
 
The ejection pattern having dire outcomes for nearby shooters was addressed in the Aberdeen Proving Ground Testing conducted in 1982/3.

http://gunhub.com/ar15/45709-design-flaw-m16a2.html Scroll down to 1983

Here is a copy/paste article that was posted on the Army Safety Center Website on hot brass injuries


Maybe the administrator eliminated a link, but once I get to Gunhub, I cannot open the link to the Army report.

Today I shot a 100 yard reduced XTC walkup match with a Garand. The guy next to me moved so I would not pelt him with brass. Garands toss brass all over the place and I have had 30-06 brass go down my shooting jacket and burn my neck, while shooting in a Garand match. It is just one of the hazards that happen. I was told, by a Gray beard, back in the day, everyone wore Campaign hats so they could protect their necks from flying Garand brass. I could believe it.

Though AR shooters can position their shooting stool so that the brass hits that. There was one match I shot where the brass from the AR on the right was hitting me in the face, during rapid fire prone, and I got one piece lodged between my left eyeglass lens and my face. It burnt. Since then I have always carried extra cardboard blinders just in case I need face protection from the guy on the left.

Always wear your shooting glasses!
 
"Probably my favorite characteristic of the VZ.58 is the upward/forward ejection angle."
+1 My FN49 also kicks the brass forward (but to the right). I don't know why so many duty guns are designed to throw the brass straight sideways where you would expect other shooters to be; probably easier and cheaper to do, or something :confused:

TCB
 
There was a fellow putting cases in my left ear a few weeks ago at the range. I was not pizzed, but ask one of the range guys if the could do something and they brought out a wood "divider". All was well after that.
 
Please remember to post only a summary of articles from elsewhere, with a link- and, hopefully, your own input.

Copying an article from elsewhere and posting it here- unless specifically allowed by the source- is a violation of Federal law.

John

The above statement is a bit too broad.

If the article originates with any branch of the U.S. Government, there is no violation of copyright law -- such works are not copyrightable by statute.
 
1. If it had a security classification it would not have been on the internet in the first place.

2. I don't know what it is called but there is software that is "read only" so it cannot be copied.

3. I did not alter any of the content.

Not only was the copy and paste removed but several more incidents of actual shootings (my "own input" ) I am aware of was censored out as well as injuries I received shooting my own rifle with no shirt on and three empties stuck to my stomach giving me third degree burns that took meat with them when I brushed them off.

The link to the Aberdeen report on line went dead about 2008. The entire report 192 pages I think it was got taken down. I wrote the guy that put it on internet and he said it was downloaded over 700 times the first year it was put up. I am just glad I copied it and kept it or it would have been gone forever.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-8.html Scroll down to March 1983 and you will see a synopsis of what it says and reports of deaths from the problem.
 
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Lethal?

Dire?

I've been shooting since 1956 and have a few brass burns, but nothing that rose to the level of lethal or dire. That only comes out the end of the barrel, not the ejection port.
 
If any firearms ejected brass could be lethal they'd be the AK-74 and the Astra blowback 9mm Largo Model 400.

My AK-74 throws cases about 10 feet up and 25 feet or more to the side.
A friend took his out the first time and was shooting 10 feet away from a shade tree.
After shooting he found a couple of cases stuck mouth first in the tree trunk.

Years ago one of the gun magazines did an article on the Astra 400 which is a powerful blowback gun.
After shooting he was told to look at the closet door at the end of the range. About 20 feet away he saw cases stuck in the door mouth first.

Once, back in the 60's I went to a local high power match between several clubs.
One rather large man was shooting prone while wearing a tee shirt.
It rode up on his back leaving the small of his back exposed.
The shooter next to him was shooting an M1 and it was dropping hot brass in the hollow of the large guys back.
He was squirming around trying to shake off the hot brass and still shoot the Rapid Fire stage at the same time.

At a club pistol match were two shooters, one right handed, and one left shooting side by side, so they were partially facing each other.
The left hand shooter's 1911 was dropping hot brass down the shirt collar of the right hand shooter.
 
Previously edited out:

Here is a copy/paste article that was posted on the Army Safety Center Website on hot brass injuries in 2009.


Hot Brass
in the Summertime
“Put the weapon down and step away!” You usually only hear that phrase on television cop shows late at night, and if you hear it in real life, you’re probably in big trouble. But these words don’t apply only to criminal situations. Many a negligent discharge might’ve been prevented if someone had spoken up when they saw a comrade acting in an unexpected or less-than-safe manner. Such was the case in a recent negligent discharge accident.

After 30-odd pages of analysis, the local and centralized accident investigation boards came up with a recommendation for live fire ranges. When something unsafe or unexpected happens on the range, the person(s) involved should put the weapon down and step back before doing anything else. The chance for error and a negligent discharge is greatly reduced when the most dangerous object around is removed from human hands.

Before this particular accident, some Soldiers and Air Force members were training perimeter defense techniques. Two Airmen situated side by side fired their M16s over a wall at moving targets downrange. Hot brass from the left Airman’s weapon landed on the other Airman’s neck and rolled down his back. The burned Airman jerked his left hand up and pivoted his body to the left as he tried to brush away the scorching metal. However, his rifle was still in his right hand, and he didn’t remove his finger from the trigger as he turned toward the other Airman. The M16 slipped off the table support, and its falling weight applied pressure to the burned Airman’s trigger finger, causing the weapon to fire and hit the Airman to the left. He suffered extensive abdominal injuries but fortunately survived the incident.

Could this type accident happen on your range? The odds of this exact incident happening again are phenomenally small, but there’s always a chance when live ammunition is involved. Hot brass is a fact of life on live fire ranges, and it’s also a common problem in close combat and military operations in urban terrain environments. But anything from a bee sting to a lightning strike or just a good scare could cause any Soldier to react in the same manner as the Airman in this accident, regardless their operational location.

Leaders and individual Soldiers applying Composite Risk Management (CRM) to their live fire training should automatically identify negligent discharges as a primary hazard on the range. But it’s important not to discount the other events and circumstances that might result in an accident. A good resource for leaders preparing for a live fire exercise is the lessons learned from other units that have either recently completed similar training or conduct it on a regular basis. Identify what their problems were, assess your unit’s risk, and mitigate accordingly.

The unit in this accident had the required officer in charge (OIC) and range safety officer (RSO) on the range that day, as well as additional safety officers who were acting as observers/controllers (O/Cs) during the exercise. Although not a contributing factor, it’s possible the O/Cs could’ve missed an unsafe act because they were preoccupied with their controlling responsibilities. When training Soldiers or Airmen who aren’t accustomed to live fire ranges, leaders must assess their safety officers’ duties to ensure they aren’t overtasked. For units that regularly train on these ranges, leaders should assess the need for safety mechanisms above and beyond what’s usually required.

Before they take over the range, OICs and RSOs are required to attend training with their local range control, and there are several vital questions that must be asked during this interaction. What are the steps for medical evacuation? What is the fastest and safest route to the nearest treatment facility? How will range control assist the unit with evacuation operations? These are important issues that must be discussed and planned for before the first shot is fired. When an accident or other injury occurs isn’t the time to figure out the actual execution of a medical evacuation.

It’s as simple as this: Put some thought into planning your next training event. CRM isn’t just a paper drill for the operations order. Rather, it’s a tool to help leaders identify how their Soldiers are at risk and how they plan to mitigate it. Visit the U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center’s Web site at https://crc.army.mil to find out more about CRM and how you can Own the Edge both on and off the range.

Comments regarding this article may be directed to the USACRC Help Desk at (334) 255-1390, DSN 558-1390, or by e-mail at [email protected]. The Accident Investigation Division may be reached through USACRC Operations at (334) 255-3410, DSN 558-3410, or by e-mail at [email protected].
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I am aware of other military range shootings where personnel got hot brass down their neck and in their involuntary responses turned and shot someone on the next firing point by accident.

I talked to one guy who was pulled off the line and directed to apply a wound pack to a sucking chest wound of another soldier who had just been accidentally shot as a result of getting hot brass down his neck. He got this order as he was the only one in the company slated to go to medic school and at the time he knew nothing of medical procedures.

- He said the worst part was the shooter and the shootee grew up next door to each other and had joined the Army together as lifetime buddies. The shooter was given a immediate discharge and sent home and the body of his best friend was sent home as well.

And:

He said the worst part was the shooter and the shootee grew up next door to each other and had joined the Army together as lifetime buddies. The shooter was given a immediate discharge and sent home and the body of his best friend was sent home as well.

Have not been able to get it confirmed but a Sergeant told me a number of years ago there was mass shooting on a range at Camp Humphries, Korea and five were shot but he could never find out the details.

Talked to another retired criminal investigator who told me he was on a ready line out at Ft. Riley, Kansas when he was young and they were zeroing rifles from prone position at 25 yards and all of a sudden this kid start screaming and they turned and watched this kid wreathing around screaming on the ground with his rifle and before a RO could get to him he pulled the trigger and shot the guy TO HIS LEFT.

I know from testing brass being ejected from a AR hits about 171 deg F about five feet from the ejection port. Third degree burns occur at 155 Deg F thusly when this caliber brass is in your neck you are being branded so to speak which explains the multiple stories one reads about with guys saying they have permanent scars on neck etc.

I remember one day before going to work for the gov't(about 40 years ago) I was shooting my first generation AR from the hip LEFT HANDED and fired three fast shots followed by this searing pain. I had no shirt on and when I looked down all three cases were sticking to my stomach and I had third degree burns. My rifle ejected towards 5:00. When I brushed the brass away they took meat with them and that made it worse.

It took I guess 25 years for them to go away. Even at that time I had about twelve years experience in competition and honestly I cannot say for sure where the muzzle went or if I pulled the trigger again as there was only three rounds in mag and I was by myself.

From that day on I became very interested in where hot brass was going from not only my rifles but from others.

One day at Camp Perry we were shooting 300 rapid and Col Sid Hines was on my left and his scorer had set up his scope on his right and had been sitting on his stool. When we got the command to rise/load etc the scorer stepped to the rear so he could observe the rifle and the target to confirm alibis etc. While I was reloading my Mod 70 I was hearing metallic clinks and looked over and his brass (from M14) was hitting the scope stand and going off in different directions and several of them had been redirected towards me. I reloaded and as I rolled back into the rifle a hot one rolled up under the family jewels and that got uncomfortable real quick. I got my sixth shot off from a somewhat unorthodox position and had to stop and move the hot case and shoot the last four in a hurry. I could not believe it but I came up with a clean. That set up with the scope stand being at the exact place would probably take thousands of tries to duplicate.


(Original article paragraphed by Art for readability.)
 
I know this probably won't work in 100% of the cases, but it might help. I distinctly remember the first time I shot an M16 in the Air Force prior to being deployed to Vietnam. We were instructed to turn up the collar of our fatigue shirt and button them at the neck to prevent hot brass from entering. It worked. We also had to wear ball (fatigue) caps and safety glasses. We sometimes got peppered with brass, especially on full auto, but no one ever got hurt at that class or at the many subsequent classes I personally attended. Never aware of any problems. I usually wear a bandanna around my neck when taking rifle classes nowadays, and still turn up the collar and button the neck of my polo shirts. Still works.
 
The worst brass burns I ever got was from another shooter firing .22 long rifle at an Appleseed Shoot.
 
Muzzle control discipline is a must under stress, and the best training i have found is welding without sleeved shirts while wearing short pants. With all that slag bouncing off bare skin you learn to keep your composure while being burned.
 
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