Brass frame durability question

[unspellable]

I've heard talk of brass frame revolvers being less durable than steel farmed ones. Most of the conversation seemed to revolve around the arbor in Colts working loose in the frame. This would be a non-issue in a Remington. So my question is how does a brass framed Remington compare to a brass framed Colt for over all durability?

I have a brass framed 1958 and a brass framed 31 cal pocket Remington, no brass framed Colts.

 

[45 Dragoon]

You'll bend the Remington before you "bend" an open-top.
The only maker of brass frames today is Pietta so the arbor length isn't necessarily a problem. Any other makers ( including older Piettas) will have short arbors.

Mike

 

[unspellable]

Not concerned about arbor length here. My understanding was that the arbor would work loose in the brass frame.

 

[unspellable]

Over on the muzzle loading forum I found an example. Seems the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder peens the standing breech, that would be the same issue in both the Colt and the Remington.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Well, you may not be concerned about arbor length but it's the only way to set "endshake" and excessive "endshake" is what allows the cylinder to imprint into the recoil ring. It's also what beats the two assemblies apart which is why endshake is so important.
A .003" or less endshake will allow the brass open-top to run like a steel one.
On the Remington, you have what you have for endshake. Probably loading off the gun will make it last longer ( less apt bend it).

Mike

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

Well, you may not be concerned about arbor length but it's the only way to set "endshake" and excessive "endshake" is what allows the cylinder to imprint into the recoil ring. It's also what beats the two assemblies apart which is why endshake is so important.
A .003" or less endshake will allow the brass open-top to run like a steel one.
On the Remington, you have what you have for endshake. Probably loading off the gun will make it last longer ( less apt bend it).

Mike

One day Mike, one day Im going to send one of mine into your shop. Not right now, finances pending, but one day. Just need to find a good steel frame first

 

[unspellable]

Guess I should clarify. The reason I am not concerned about arbor length is that I am assuming that we have correct arbor length and end shake on both types before we start. Given that, which holds up better? peening the recoil ring seems like a toss up between the two. The Remington would not have an issue with the arbor working loose. Or wedge.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Ok, all things correct on both examples, the Remington is the weaker platform.

Mike

( all things being correct means the wedge won't "get loose" as well. If it's driven in as it should be, that won't/can't happen. )

 

[45 Dragoon]

Looking back at your original post, you're basically asking which platform will last longer. The answer will be the same as long as you're "assuming" setup is correct on both examples and frame material is the same. The open-top platform is more durable.

Mike

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

The open-top platform is more durable.

Back when I was a teen i remember the assumption and the general debate that the Remington was stronger. Although it's true that revolvers eventually defaulted to a open top design as it was stronger for the hot cartridges we started using, as well it was easier to tune up a solid frame revolver. Otherwise, there was nothing wrong with the open top designs, so long as they are tuned well.

 

[hawg]

This is my .36 Remington after using 25 grain loads and it didn't take very many to do it. It is fixable at this point but to keep using it will make it get worse and worse even with 15 grain loads.



These aren't mine but you can see how it battered the recoil ring and pulled the arbor out. The one one the left is new.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

Just sad how many of us learn to avoid the brass guns. Maybe in the past (The 1860s) when the Confederate clones were made with higher copper content it was somehow better but the brass just doesn't last. Unless you're just really lucky.

 

[hawg]

Just sad how many of us learn to avoid the brass guns. Maybe in the past (The 1860s) when the Confederate clones were made with higher copper content it was somehow better but the brass just doesn't last. Unless you're just really lucky.

Confederate guns weren't brass. They were bronze.

 

[Jim Watson]

But what kind?
Church bells at 80-20 copper-tin
or
Real gun metal 88-10-2 Cu-Sn-Zn which is stronger than bell metal or brass?

I doubt a collector is going to let you take filings off his G&G to analyze.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

Confederate guns weren't brass. They were bronze.

But yeah, stronger nonetheless.

 

[hawg]

But what kind?
Church bells at 80-20 copper-tin
or
Real gun metal 88-10-2 Cu-Sn-Zn which is stronger than bell metal or brass?

I doubt a collector is going to let you take filings off his G&G to analyze.

Bell metal is stronger/harder than brass.

 

[Cliff6]

Ok, just slightly off topic here, but I bought my brass frame revolver because I love the look of it. Sometimes, that is reason enough. Yes, it may wear out sooner, but if that happens, I'll just buy another one

 

[Jim Watson]

I bet our resident c&b smiths could set in a steel reinforcement to the brass breech face.
Shouldn't cost much more than a new all steel gun.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

This is my low budget FIE 1851 "brass frame" revolver bought 1979. I shot it off and on over the years, usual charge: 20gr Goex FFFg, .375" soft lead ball. You can see the imprint of the cylinder in the brass frame. That does not happen with a steel frame

When Civil War gun makers made "brass frame" copies of Colt revolvers, they very often used donated bells. Bell metal is a bronze alloy of copper with a high tin content of 20–25%. Classic "gun metal" aka "red brass" is a bronze alloy 88% copper varying 8–10% tin and 2–4% zinc. A lot of old time "brass frame" firearms were made of gun metal, not never of yellow brass. The Winchester Model 1866 nicknamed the "Yellow Boy" had a receiver of bronze gun metal.

clarify "not" to "never"

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Eventually my "brass frame" Remington 1858 replica (bought used) stretched to the point the hammer had trouble striking hard enough to fire a cap (lotsa back and forth play on the cylinder).

 

[hawg]

A lot of old time "brass frame" firearms were made of gun metal, not of yellow brass. The Winchester Model 1866 nicknamed the "Yellow Boy" had a receiver of bronze gun metal.

None of them were made of yellow brass.

 

[hawg]

I bet our resident c&b smiths could set in a steel reinforcement to the brass breech face.
Shouldn't cost much more than a new all steel gun.

I've seen where it was done using a steel washer on Remingtons. Mine isn't worth spending the money on.