Steel vrs. brass frame bp revolvers.

[Mike_In_BC]

Hey, there. I'm a bit of a blackpowder newcomer, I'm looking to buy a bp revolver to take with me to rendevouz's so I can tag along on the pistol shoot.
I've been looking online at pietta revolvers. I'm going to have to mail order one and have it shipped out to me, so I can't examine what I'm getting.
I want to get a remington copy, in .36 cal, but the choice of brass or steel frame is holding me up. I like the way the brass looks, but the steel ones are more money, and more money generally means better.

Any thoughts? If I get a brass framed one will I regret it? How likely is damage to the frame? I will be shooting it a lot, so will the brass frame pack it in faster?

 

[Old Dragoon]

I'd buy the Steel framed one. Then if the conversion cylinder bug bites you, you can buy the cylinder and drop it in...for those NON rendevous days. Conversion cylinders are not recommended for brass frames. On a historical note Remington never made the %8 Remy in the brass Frame. They did , however make a pocket model (First Model)in Brass, but that is a 31 Cal.

 

[gpr]

i really like the look of the brass, not in the colt, with a top frame i would push the streach factor, be sides if i go cartridge, i HAVE to buy a new piece.....gpr

 

[DixieTexian]

I don't think the brass is as big a deal in the Remingtons, since they have a top strap. .36 caliber should hold up better than a .44 brass frame. As long as you treat it nice and don't shoot heavy loads I would guess it would be fine, but I am new to BP too. I have a brass Remmie and I like it.

 

[saaman]

I used to do repairs on cap and ball revolvers--many had seen a lot of abuse. The brass frame Remington and Colt replicas seemed to suffer equally from frame stretching. Steel is a lot stronger and I prefer it over brass.
Some brass frames seem stronger than others, whether it is due to the alloy composition or the heat treating.

 

[Old Fuff]

The brass-famed revolvers were met to be collectables and decorators. The lower price also signifies lesser quality in other parts besides the frames. If you have shooting in mind, pick a steel frame revolver.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

I would say steel every time, even if you are only shooting light loads.

 

[mykeal]

Brass has it's place, but prefer steel

Brass is cheaper not because of quality but because it's cheaper to buy, work and manufacture. A well built brass frame gun and a well built steel frame gun are equivalent in quality.

But, and there must be a but, brass frames will, under some conditions, deform, while steel frame guns under the same conditions will not.

The issue is how the gun is used. If you shoot maximum loads, frequently, then the brass frame will eventually become loose, or deformed, or stretch, whatever term you'd like to use. However, if you shoot moderate loads, or use the gun infrequently, you will probably not live long enough to see the frame "wear out".

I rarely shoot maximum loads even in steel frame guns. I find the load that is most accurate for each gun (and it has never been the maximum load) and shoot that load almost every time, so for me the issue of brass vs steel is moot. Or rather, it's a cosmetic issue. When I occasionally feel the need to eradicate mosquitoes at my range, I take my Dragoons (all steel, of course), load them up and make lots of noise and smoke. Hey, it happens. Get over it.

Buy the gun you like the most and treat it well. Stay away from maximum loads unless you have a steel frame and just like a lot of noise and smoke once in a while (NOTHING wrong with that!). And above all, have fun.

 

[Zeke/PA]

I have three BP revolvers, one being a brass frame that I inherited.
To me, the brass frame was not as objectionable as were the un- hardened internal parts which I'm in the process of replacing.
Go steel and go good quality.
You'll be way ahead in the long run.
Zeke

 

[Mike_In_BC]

I think I'm going to go with the steel frame, it is only about fifty bucks canadian more, and if I get a brass frame that breaks it won't be saving me any money.

I do plan to shoot it a lot, and have a couple more questions. How much bp does do you charge the cylinder with for .36? (here in western canada it seems like everyone uses real bp, not the substitutes)

Also, how does the conversion cylinder deal work? Here in Canada a cap and ball revolver is a restricted weapon same as any other handgun so I wouldn't mind being able to shoot cartridges too.

What caliber cartridges would it take? Like .38 special, or .38 s&w, would it only take blackpowder loads? How does the hammer hit the primers? I kind of looks to me like the conversion cylinder has a piece on the back that looks like the regular cylinder, if so how do you load the shells in it, and how do you get them out?

 

[DrLaw]

Out of time

Back when Turner Kirkland was alive and kicking, he used to state in the Dixie Dun Works catalog in all the brass frame gun descriptions that brass frames will eventually get out-of-time and they would not warranty the brass frames for that.

Personally, I have never heard of it happening, but I don't get around to many other shooting places where people use B-P as much as I used to. I have been thinking about getting the Spiller & Burr replica, figuring that the top strap will hold the thing together and in as much as my lack of shooting occurs, the gun would outlive me.

The Doc is out now.

 

[ArmedBear]

Do note that the only reason that brass frame revolvers existed was because the Confederacy had a hard time getting enough steel, so they saved it for the parts that really needed it. Especially with a 20% casualty rate in battles, the guns didn't get fired nearly as much in military service as they would at the target range.

All the guns in question -- Colt, Remington, Whitney -- were designed for steel. If something is engineered for steel, it's not going to last in brass.

The Spiller and Burr was a Whitney design copy; the brass frame was beefier than the original steel. This created clearance problems with fouling, AFAIK.

If you plan to shoot it a few times in the next 10 years and hang it on the wall most of the time, hey, brass is probably fine. But if you plan to use it for target shooting, I'd get steel.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

loads

I would recommend starting with 12 grains of fffg Goex or similar with an ox-yoke lubed felt wad over it and the ball seated firmly down over the charge (always seat the ball down firmly with no airspace to avoid a pressure spike that could bulge or burst the cylinder!). You can work up to 18 grains, checking your accuracy and point of impact.

The pre-lubed felt wads will keep your pistol cleaner and will eliminate the need to grease over the cylinder ends after loading.

You may want to make-up some "speed loaders" for your rendevous - get some wooden needle holders/containers and measure your charges into each. They're pretty inexpensive and make nice "period" charge holders. Do a search and you'll find em for $1.75 or so. That'll speed the process of loading on the fly.

 

[Mike_In_BC]

O.K. steel looks like the way to go. I will probably shoot it a lot (once a week) so it would seen pennywise, pound foolish to go with a brass frame.

Thanks for the input, I wasn't sure what to make of the brass frame idea, but I've got a better idea now.

 

[mykeal]

Loads and Frequency of shooting.

The best load is the one your gun likes most, which sounds silly but like most oversimplifications, is really quite wise. One of the fun things about bp is that it seems each gun has it's favorite load, and you get to play with it to find out what that load is.

O.S.O.K. is on the right track. But let me say at the outset, the key is being consistent, doing things the same way every time. Little things like how much you compress the load, or whether you tap the measure to get the powder settled, all matter in getting consistent results.

Start with a light load. 12 gr is a bit low; I'd start with 15. Use either a lubed felt wad or cornmeal to fill up the chamber so that the loading lever can seat the ball firmly on the powder; no, absolutely no, gap between the powder and the ball is allowed (safety issue). Shoot at least 3 and maybe as many as 5 shots, same point of aim each time regardless of where the ball goes. The point is to get a good group. Use a rest and a target no further away than 25 yards; 15 is better. Next, increase the load to 18 gr and repeat the process, then 20 gr, 22 gr, 25 gr and 30 gr.. I'd stop there, although you can load it higher. The likelihood is that you will notice a drop in accuracy (groups growing in size above 20 gr. Your optimum load will be the smallest group you get.

Lately I've taken to shooting a full cylinder at each load, and swabbing the bore and cylinder with a bp solvent between cylinders; this seems to give the most consistent results. Fouling can influence the results in extreme cases, so I just like to be sure it's out of the equation.

The best load for my .36 cal Remington New Navy, which is a Pietta, by the way, is 20 gr fffg real bp with a lubed felt wad and a 0.375 round ball. Sam Fadala's 'Black Powder Loading Handbook' doesn't list the .36 cal Remington, but he does show the most accurate load was 20 gr fffg and the optimum load (highest velocities and energies) was 30 gr fffg for the .44 cal gun, and he tested up to 40 gr, so it will definitely handle more.

I should mention that you need to check for a thin ring of lead to be shaved off the ball when seating it in the chamber. If you don't get that ring you may need to go to 0.380 round balls, which may mean you have to cast your own because they are hard to find. That would be most unusual, however it has happened.

Shooting once a week would not be a problem for a brass frame with the loads mentioned above. However, since you are going with the steel frame the issue is moot.

 

[frosty]

Steel vs Brass

There isnt any doubt a steel frame gun is stronger, but I bought a Pietta brass frame remmie in Cabelas bargain cave...The gun and a spare cylinder barely cost me $150. After 150 plus shots, there is no sign of frame stretching, as of yet-even through inspection with an adjustable parallel and mic. Its a bit early to tell, so I'll give it time. The load I've been shooting in the gun is a bit "stout" for a brass frame- 30gr pyrodex p, .030 fiber wad, sagebrush lubed felt wad, and finally a buffalo bullet 180 gr pistol bullet on top. The gun shoots slightly left with this load, but I dovetailed the barrel and made a new front sight. I also used a ball nosed end mill to remove the sharp corners around the nipple pockets, to facilitate easier use of cappers-( this can be done with a moto tool and a stone). All in all, its a pretty decent gun.

 

[mike101]

Go with steel every time

"What caliber cartridges would it take? Like .38 special, or .38 s&w, would it only take blackpowder loads?"

.38 Long Colt, or .38 Special hollow base wad-cutters. You do not have to use black powder ammo. Use "Cowboy Ammo", available from many major manufacturers. I think pretty much all .38 Colt is cowboy ammo. They use smokeless powder, but pressures and velocitiies are similar to BP.

CAS rules specify nothing with a muzzle velocity over 1000 fps. Cowboy ammo generally runs around 700 fps.

 

[rifle]

I've learned that the Remington brass framers or any that have the top strap will last a good long time with not firing heavy loads. A 44 cal. doesn't need any more that 30gr. and a 36cal. doesn't need any more than 25gr.
The top strap isn't the part of the frame that makes a brass framer last longer. The back of the cylinder that recoils into the frame causing deformation is the achiles heel of a brass framer. What makes the positive difference with a Remington over a Colt is the fact that the rear of the cylinder has a wide flat area that recoils into the wide flat part of the frame behind the cylinder. The Colt has the thin ring on the recoil shield of the frame behind the cylinder and the cylinder recoils into that thin raised ring. Six spots on the Colt's cylinder ,where the spots are positioned between the nipples, recoil into the frame. Six spots of the Colt cylinder recoil into a thin ring on the frame behind the cylinder whereas one wide flat spot of the Remington cylinder recoils into a wide area of the frame behind the cylinder. See the difference? The raised thin ring on the Colts recoil shield behind the cylinder gets deformed or peened back from the six spots on the cylinder between the nipples. That is what causes the "loose" in the gun. Lets the cylinder go fore and aft too much. Makes the hand not reach the ratchets on the cylinder. Causes misfires from the cylinder moving forward because of the space the deformed ring on the recoil shield opens up. Changes the position of the cylinder notches on the cylinder so the bolt can't lock the gun in battery well. Anywhoooo..the Colts have that thin raised ring, that gets deformed, to keep the capped nipples from recoiling into the frame and chain firing. The Remington doesn't need that sort of thing. The remington lasts a good long time in brass because of how the back of the cylinder and the frame it recoils into doesn't deform like a Colt. A thin steel back plate "soldered" on the Colts frame to protect the thin ring behind the cylinder makes a brass frame Colt last almost as long as a steel frame. Long enough that a person would have to shoot a lot for a long time to hurt the gun. I know because I've installed the steel backplate on my brass framer and on others brass framers. Makes all the difference and you can shoot normal(not light) loads in it too. Makes them last pretty much as long as a steel framer. Of course when you install the thin backplate on the Colts recoil shield to protect the ring,that by the way encircles the ratchet on the back of the cylinder when the ratchet goes into it's recess in the frame, the nipples have to be sunk deeper. Sunk deeper at least 3/4th's the height of the ring so the caps won't recoil into the backplate and chain fire. Well, a thin rimmed steel bushing from the hardware store 7/8X1-3/8th's in 14gauge works real well for a backplate on a Colt. It's usually the same height as the ring it surrounds. That makes fitting it easier.

 

[rifle]

pic of brass frame fix. funky pic but it gets the idea across.

 

[Mike_In_BC]

Thanks for all the advice you guys. Now for the waiting, waiting for the govt, waiting for the mail, etc.

 

[Bad Flynch]

Never buy a Pietta revolver without having the sample to inspect in your hands. I have seen some really unforgivable screw-ups in Pietta revolvers: crooked barrels, loose barrels, etc. Buy an Uberti and be safe.

The cartridge conversion people do not want you to use their cylinders on a brass framed revolver. They say so up front in their ads, especially on their websites.

Brass frames were legendary for stretching with time, but given modest loads and light duty, one might get some fair wear out of a good one.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Never buy a Pietta revolver without having the sample to inspect in your hands

I would say that Pietta are every bit as good as Uberti and in some cases better. Being able to handle before you buy is obviously an advantage but I would only worry about Spanish made items. With Pietta, Uberti and especially Pedersoli I think you are pretty safe these days.

 

[Ed Gallop]

I have only one brass frame and it is a Spiller and Burr. I think the originals were only made with brass frames. I've shot maybe close to a thousand rounds over the years without a problem except the main spring broke. It was easy to replace. It isn't as tight as it once was but it is safe and I'm satisfied at the way it has held up. Pietta calls for a very light load in the 36 cal S&B but I shoot what CVA suggest, maybe twice the load. Not a problem... but I wouldn't buy a brass framed revolver again. I like the looks and feel of steel and willing to pay a little more. Ed.