Brass Sizing Issue(Help?)

[jebova2301]

So I am hoping to pick some brains and maybe someone else can help me figure out what is going on here. I was going to switch my progressive press over to a different set of dies, but wanted to run them in my turret press just to be sure they were in spec and sized brass properly before doing anything else. Both pieces of brass are Winchester 5.56 brass, both from the same lot of ammo, both fired through the same rifle, both only fired a single time, and both cleaned in a wet tumbler for the same amount of time. I feel this should pretty much negate any significant differences between them.

In the picture, you can see one has a clear ring around the base of it(sized in a Lyman Pro .223 sizing die that it turns out has a carbide sizing insert), and the other looks perfectly normal with just the regular line we see where the die stopped making contact with the brass(this was sized on a Lee .223 full length resizing die). Both cases were lubed with Imperial Sizing Wax(normally use spray on case lube, but since these were just going to be a few one-off things, I just used the sizing wax).

Does anyone know what is causing the ring around the base of the one sized with the Lyman die? It is a physical ring/step/lip/ridge that you can catch your nail on. I don't believe it to be an impending case head failure, because even if I size them through the Lee die first, I get no ring, and then if I run them through the Lyman die, the ring appears(although slightly less pronounced than if they were only sized with the Lyman die).

Does anyone have any suggestions? If I stop sizing at a point where the ring doesn't appear with the Lyman die, it doesn't come close to fitting in a case gauge. In order to get it where it fits in the case gauge, I get the ring you see in the pictures below. With resizing using only the Lee die, the brass fits perfectly in the case gauge(other than needing trimming, but that is to be expected). Really hoping someone can help me out, here.

In all pictures with both pieces, the brass sized with the Lyman die is on the left and the brass sized with the Lee die is on the right.

Edited to add: The ring on the Lyman sized brass is also right at the point where the die stops making contact with the brass, and it feels like my nail catches slightly more going from base to neck than it does going from neck to base.

 

[FROGO207]

The difference is the radius inside the mouth of the die one is rounded and gently flared the other is squeezed down and likely no radius. I own lee 223 dies and do not have that ridge. I would email the picture to Lyman and ask if they made their die that way on purpose. I bet it is not finished completly. They should fix it for you. Kudos for checking things before jumping in and sizing 1K rounds before noticing.

 

[BreechFace]

Nice belted magnum .223 case you got there!

@FROGO207 is probably right, the die may have missed a step on the manufacturing process.

 

[edwardware]

It appears that you've got a bad die, with a sharp leading entry edge.

Given what that costs, I'd get you're money back and use a steel die. You probably won't live long enough to wear out a steel die. . .

 

[jebova2301]

The difference is the radius inside the mouth of the die one is rounded and gently flared the other is squeezed down and likely no radius. I own lee 223 dies and do not have that ridge. I would email the picture to Lyman and ask if they made their die that way on purpose. I bet it is not finished completly. They should fix it for you. Kudos for checking things before jumping in and sizing 1K rounds before noticing.

Thanks for the advice. I will check that when I go to lunch here in a couple hours. Off the top of my head, I could have swore that carbide ring had a nice taper to it, but I could certainly be mistaken. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

 

[jebova2301]

It appears that you've got a bad die, with a sharp leading entry edge.

Given what that costs, I'd get you're money back and use a steel die. You probably won't live long enough to wear out a steel die. . .

To be honest, I expected steel dies. This was part of the die pack that I bundled with my Mark 7 Evo. If nothing else, I will see about sending it back for a replacement and probably just throw my Lee die in the Evo since I just make blasting ammo on there, and pull the Redding die currently in there and use it for making more precision ammo on my turret or single stage press.

 

[rfwobbly]

I've had expensive dies do that to even straight walled pistol brass, like 38Super. Use dies with a greater entry radius, but also try a different case lube.

 

[WillyG]

Where you have that ring is where my brass separated after a couple of firings. It was burning through. That clearly isn't your problem, but I zoomed in in to make sure. Mine appeared right after they were fired. I attributed my problem to a batch of bad brass from Nosler.

 

[JFrank]

If you send three fire formed pieces of your brass along to Layman they should hone that die free.

 

[JFrank]

Damn auto correct..

 

[jebova2301]

If you send three fire formed pieces of your brass along to Layman they should hone that die free.

Do you mean three pieces of fired brass that have just been resized, or resize 3, fire them, and resize again?

 

[jebova2301]

I've had expensive dies do that to even straight walled pistol brass, like 38Super. Use dies with a greater entry radius, but also try a different case lube.

The difference is the radius inside the mouth of the die one is rounded and gently flared the other is squeezed down and likely no radius. I own lee 223 dies and do not have that ridge. I would email the picture to Lyman and ask if they made their die that way on purpose. I bet it is not finished completly. They should fix it for you. Kudos for checking things before jumping in and sizing 1K rounds before noticing.

Attaching some pictures. The carbide ring has a decent bevel to it, but perhaps it is still just a bit too steep when comparing it to my Lee die.

 

[243winxb]

Change lube?

 

[jebova2301]

Change lube?

Tried with imperial sizing wax, got the result you saw. Tried with frankford arsenal spray on lube, same result. Tried with homemade lanolin mix, same result. I don't really think it is a lube issue. Hate to say it, but I think the other people are right and I am going to have to contact Lyman again after work to send another one of their products back.

Had a similar issue with their size and trim die, except it was just never reamed to proper specs and had to send it back to get another one. Replacement had the same issue and had to get another. Third one was finally the one that worked like it should.

Really starting to lose faith in their products, or at least question their quality control in regards to sizing products. The molds and m-die I have from them have been great.

 

[JFrank]

Do you mean three pieces of fired brass that have just been resized, or resize 3, fire them, and resize again?

The norm is 3 3x fired pieces of brass, ensuring full growth ( firm bolt closer is an indication ) then do not size them prior to shipping in fact I leave the spent primers intact, some fellas use a neck size die two or three times accomplish the task or just stuff a tissue in the neck and fire 3xtimes without a bullet.
What im monitoring here is radial exspansion of the case when fire formed then I have my die honed to only reduce the case diameter about .002 for a bolt gun and what you'll find is the resizing process a pleasure rather than a burden

 

[rfwobbly]

Is the brass truly centered under the die ? Some progressives can get slightly out of time. Single-stage can get machined wrong or bent out of alignment.

 

[NMexJim]

Lyman Customer Support
800-225-9626
800-423-9704
860-632-2020

they may have heard of this problem and will just drop a new set of dies in the mail.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think Lyman owes you a new die. That one is undersize and too square at the mouth.
Dillon, Hornady, and Lee are certainly not perfect, but if you want to hear about something weird, read about Mark 7.
Lots of discussion on Benos.

 

[JFrank]

I think Lyman owes you a new die. That one is undersize and too square at the mouth.
Dillon, Hornady, and Lee are certainly not perfect, but if you want to hear about something weird, read about Mark 7.
Lots of discussion on Benos.

Definitely not a good fit for the chamber! I've never seen a die so grossly wrong... Lol

 

[Thomasss]

Do us all a favor and let us know what Lyman says or does.

 

[jebova2301]

Dillon, Hornady, and Lee are certainly not perfect, but if you want to hear about something weird, read about Mark 7.
Lots of discussion on Benos.

I had heard some bad about Mark 7 before buying mine, but they have honestly been nothing but good to me as far as being helpful and responsive. I would have preferred not having to contact them in the first place, but that's water under the bridge. They left out a couple small parts on my Mark 7 Evo(a few small setscrews), and sent me the wrong bullet feeder(308 instead of 223), but they got both issues resolved right away, and by right away I mean I contacted them on Thursday evening and all the replacement stuff was here on Saturday morning. Wasn't happy about the mistake, but happy with how they handled it. Also, I wasn't paying attention and accidentally crushed the spring wire that holds the cases in the shell plate and couldn't find the spares that came with the press. Called them to order new ones and they sent them at no charge, even though I would have felt it was totally justified if they wanted to charge since that one was all on me. Aside from that, I have turned out thousands of rounds on the press with no issues whatsoever(probably just jinxed myself). I know they are owned by Lyman, now, though.

 

[jebova2301]

Do us all a favor and let us know what Lyman says or does.

Going to call them once I get off work at 2:30 central time. I'll keep everybody updated.

As a side note, I also tried running some lake city brass through the die and got the same issue.

 

[jebova2301]

Well, quick update was that I called a bit early since my meeting was shorter than expected. The first question was how many pieces of brass I have ran through the die. I stated that I had only run 5 through. The gentleman on the other end of the phone asked me to run 10 more through, that way we could see if the problem fixes itself. When it didn't, I offered to send him some pictures via email, and we are now working from that route. Pictures have been sent, and I will follow up with what I hear back.

 

[jebova2301]

Received some correspondence from Lyman today. They are having me send my die in to them, and will be replacing it with a new one. Will keep things updated when the die gets to them.

In the effort of being fair and painting them in the best light possible, it will likely be a couple days before I am able to send the die back, so I don't want this to count against their service time.

 

[markr6754]

Interesting thread. That is EXACTLY the result I kept getting with 9mm brass from 3 specific manufacturers when resizing with my Lee Carbide Sizing die. I wasn't able to get the perfect pictures that you did...but that is the result. Brass flow is what its called. The die is squeezing the brass so hard that it flows over at the limit of the die. I could always feel it in the press handle when it occurred, I didn't even have to look to know I'd ruined another case.

Blazer was nearly 90% ruined...I quit sizing Blazer completely. Then other lesser known headstamps. GFL became my favorite 9mm brass to load as I never lost a single case to the issue.

My Lyman Customer Service experience has been excellent. I've had 3 issues with various Lyman products, and they shipped free replacements overnight in every case.

I'd add some of your cases to the returned die. I had a sizing problem with a Redding 40 S&W die, they asked for brass and bullets, I sent the entire die set back. They repaired my die and sized and loaded 3 dummy rounds.