Brazilian Gun Ban Soundly Rejected!
- Thread starter The_Shootist
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Tropical Z
Member
YES!
Go Brazil!
Go Brazil!
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
OK so now that it has been stated pretty clearly what the "will of the people" is, what next? I don't know enough about the politics of Brazil to say.
I read that there have been lots of pretty harsh anti gun laws passed over the years and this was just going to be the nail in the coffin.
Is there support to turn anything around as far as private ownership, CCW, etc?
Or did the people just delay things a little.
I read that there have been lots of pretty harsh anti gun laws passed over the years and this was just going to be the nail in the coffin.
Is there support to turn anything around as far as private ownership, CCW, etc?
Or did the people just delay things a little.
utahminirevolver
Member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2003
- Messages
- 182
Definitely, viva Brasil!, or is it something more like, Tuttu bene, mi hirmau?
Now if only more of the brainwashed anti-self-defense types in the First World could become so enlightened. And to avoid charges of smugness, I should disclose that I shamefully once bought into the idea of government gun control too, but saw the light one dark night on an empty street with a thug (luckily, I escaped on my bicycle).
Now if only more of the brainwashed anti-self-defense types in the First World could become so enlightened. And to avoid charges of smugness, I should disclose that I shamefully once bought into the idea of government gun control too, but saw the light one dark night on an empty street with a thug (luckily, I escaped on my bicycle).
NineseveN
member
Good deal Brazil!
NickEllis
Member
Loci of violence in Brazil
Having spent a great deal of time in Brazil, including my childhood, the violence there is an interesting factor that should be studied at a deeper level by our own sociologists. In a country of comparative land mass to the lower 48 states, the large criminal elements are located almost entirely within the large central three or four cities - Sao Paulo and its metropolis, Rio de Janeiro with its large gang and drug related culture, Belo Horizonte, and now in the far south with its access to Paraguay/Uraguay Porto Alegre. In these cities, the local governments have almost entirely regulated gun ownership and use; the criminal elements of course have full access to anything they want, including a full array of military weapons unavailable even to the police, anti-personel mines, and stinger misseles. In the large other portions of the country, guns are owned and used widely by the civilian population, and has no such trouble. For example, in the north, Roraima, where I lived, guns are considered every day tools, in a land of farmers which encounter daily dangers from pumas, crocodiles, and a wide varray of other issues.
However, the cities pose and entirely different set of problems, that of the human crime element, and the lack of available policing. Perhaps the best move that the NRA and anti-gun control elements did in Brazil was to question the ability of the state to protect the citizen. The people responded in a resounding NO!!! they are not; two anectodes from my own life in Brazil illustrate this strong distrust in a police force that is underpaid, strikes at will, often recieve their only pay - not from the state, which is often months behind pay schedul - but rather from the criminal elements which line their wallets. Interestingly, major populations centers like Rio trust the gangs more then the police to keep order within the Bairros. As for the two stories:
1) when I lived in Campinas, Sao Paulo, a very good friend of the family lived about 20 minutes away. We had been friends for years, both families, I had dated their daughter, was close friends with their son, our parents went to church together. The father is American (houston area), the mother is English, the children born in Brazil. Their cousins and family lived there with them as well, all americans. Four years ago, at the height of the kidnapping wave that swept Campinas in the late 90's-00's, their cousin, Sunny, was kidnapped and held for ransom by a gang element in the city, an offshoot of the "Red Hand" gang so prevelant in Rio. He had previously been held up that week, along with his sister and younger brother - now the Gang returned and kidnapped him. You have to understand, Sunny was one of those classic American types, rough and tumble, hard-ass, from the sticks of Texas. After three days, when an opportunity presented itself as the gang was relatively drunk on cachasa, he grabbed the leader, whose name was Juarez deMarco, stole his gun, and killed three gang members as he escaped. His return was of course with much fanfare, our church through a party, it was rather an amazing story. The next weekend, the police showed up at Sunny's parent's door, with a warrent to search the house. They removed all weapons from the house as "evidence", including the .45 springfield he had used to kill Juarez. The next morning, a truck-load of gang members swung by the house as Sunny and his father were playing soccer in the front yard. Sunny ran to the house, yelling for his mom to get the guns, only to realize they were gone, taken as "Evidence." Sunny was shot there, slowly, as retaliation for his escape and killing of Juarez. He died in his mother's arms. No police action was taken. Only after an independent investigator was hired by the family was evidence uncovered that the police department had been on the take the entire time, and had removed the guns in preparation of a retaliation attack. The funeral of Sunny was full of grief, but even more by anger. Since that time, five gang members of that group have been found shot and killed, left on the public square, with no indication of who or why they were shot.
2) July, 2003. My parents, along with my younger brother and sister, live in Porto Alegre, Brazil. In 2003, as my brother was riding down the street on the way to basketball practice, he was jumped by four people, well known criminal elements of the area. When they tried to steal his bike, he fought them; the broke a brick over his head, kicked him in the face multiple times, and ran off with the bike. When my father went to report the crime at the police station, he found that the police were on strike that month, and the sergent in charge told him there was "nothing he could do." No file would be reported, no action taken, even though these men were well known for their criminal activity. However, the seargent told my father the following: the name, address, and daily activity of this man, where he could be found at certain hours. He told him: "you find this man, you kill him, and you throw him into the river, and you will be doing us all a favor. We won't stop you, we won't come and find you. If you want something done, you must do it yourself."
I am not condoning this kind of action, although I think that it must be taken into account as an option in a society that offers no rule by law, but instead by the gun. My father, as a missionary, made the decision not to follow up on that plan. I am not sure what I would have done in a similar situation.
Here is the main point: in a place like Brazil, to remove all guns from the people, as happened to Sunny, would be to completely expose them to the will and ire of any criminal element, or any predator. This is no longer theory, but rather a current, simple fact of modern society. It is no wonder that the people of Brazil chose to vote down this referendum, knowing full well the general incompetency of the police, the viciousness of the criminal element, and their own need to fight for survival. I applaud the Brazilian people for taking the initiative to reject this measure. I hope that they will take MUCH further steps in developing a system in which all people - not simply the senators, the rich, the police, and the criminals - are entitled to carry firearms on a daily basis, an option which is not now available to the normal person who cannot pay thousands of dollars a year, renewing his license on a yearly basis. Perhaps, and I pray that it will be, this will be a catalyst for change in that society. As someone who loves Brazil, who would love to take my soon-to-be bride there, perhaps even to live there and teach part-time, I hate the fact that I do not have access to the protection that I would need if I were to take my loved-ones there. I hope that will change.
Having spent a great deal of time in Brazil, including my childhood, the violence there is an interesting factor that should be studied at a deeper level by our own sociologists. In a country of comparative land mass to the lower 48 states, the large criminal elements are located almost entirely within the large central three or four cities - Sao Paulo and its metropolis, Rio de Janeiro with its large gang and drug related culture, Belo Horizonte, and now in the far south with its access to Paraguay/Uraguay Porto Alegre. In these cities, the local governments have almost entirely regulated gun ownership and use; the criminal elements of course have full access to anything they want, including a full array of military weapons unavailable even to the police, anti-personel mines, and stinger misseles. In the large other portions of the country, guns are owned and used widely by the civilian population, and has no such trouble. For example, in the north, Roraima, where I lived, guns are considered every day tools, in a land of farmers which encounter daily dangers from pumas, crocodiles, and a wide varray of other issues.
However, the cities pose and entirely different set of problems, that of the human crime element, and the lack of available policing. Perhaps the best move that the NRA and anti-gun control elements did in Brazil was to question the ability of the state to protect the citizen. The people responded in a resounding NO!!! they are not; two anectodes from my own life in Brazil illustrate this strong distrust in a police force that is underpaid, strikes at will, often recieve their only pay - not from the state, which is often months behind pay schedul - but rather from the criminal elements which line their wallets. Interestingly, major populations centers like Rio trust the gangs more then the police to keep order within the Bairros. As for the two stories:
1) when I lived in Campinas, Sao Paulo, a very good friend of the family lived about 20 minutes away. We had been friends for years, both families, I had dated their daughter, was close friends with their son, our parents went to church together. The father is American (houston area), the mother is English, the children born in Brazil. Their cousins and family lived there with them as well, all americans. Four years ago, at the height of the kidnapping wave that swept Campinas in the late 90's-00's, their cousin, Sunny, was kidnapped and held for ransom by a gang element in the city, an offshoot of the "Red Hand" gang so prevelant in Rio. He had previously been held up that week, along with his sister and younger brother - now the Gang returned and kidnapped him. You have to understand, Sunny was one of those classic American types, rough and tumble, hard-ass, from the sticks of Texas. After three days, when an opportunity presented itself as the gang was relatively drunk on cachasa, he grabbed the leader, whose name was Juarez deMarco, stole his gun, and killed three gang members as he escaped. His return was of course with much fanfare, our church through a party, it was rather an amazing story. The next weekend, the police showed up at Sunny's parent's door, with a warrent to search the house. They removed all weapons from the house as "evidence", including the .45 springfield he had used to kill Juarez. The next morning, a truck-load of gang members swung by the house as Sunny and his father were playing soccer in the front yard. Sunny ran to the house, yelling for his mom to get the guns, only to realize they were gone, taken as "Evidence." Sunny was shot there, slowly, as retaliation for his escape and killing of Juarez. He died in his mother's arms. No police action was taken. Only after an independent investigator was hired by the family was evidence uncovered that the police department had been on the take the entire time, and had removed the guns in preparation of a retaliation attack. The funeral of Sunny was full of grief, but even more by anger. Since that time, five gang members of that group have been found shot and killed, left on the public square, with no indication of who or why they were shot.
2) July, 2003. My parents, along with my younger brother and sister, live in Porto Alegre, Brazil. In 2003, as my brother was riding down the street on the way to basketball practice, he was jumped by four people, well known criminal elements of the area. When they tried to steal his bike, he fought them; the broke a brick over his head, kicked him in the face multiple times, and ran off with the bike. When my father went to report the crime at the police station, he found that the police were on strike that month, and the sergent in charge told him there was "nothing he could do." No file would be reported, no action taken, even though these men were well known for their criminal activity. However, the seargent told my father the following: the name, address, and daily activity of this man, where he could be found at certain hours. He told him: "you find this man, you kill him, and you throw him into the river, and you will be doing us all a favor. We won't stop you, we won't come and find you. If you want something done, you must do it yourself."
I am not condoning this kind of action, although I think that it must be taken into account as an option in a society that offers no rule by law, but instead by the gun. My father, as a missionary, made the decision not to follow up on that plan. I am not sure what I would have done in a similar situation.
Here is the main point: in a place like Brazil, to remove all guns from the people, as happened to Sunny, would be to completely expose them to the will and ire of any criminal element, or any predator. This is no longer theory, but rather a current, simple fact of modern society. It is no wonder that the people of Brazil chose to vote down this referendum, knowing full well the general incompetency of the police, the viciousness of the criminal element, and their own need to fight for survival. I applaud the Brazilian people for taking the initiative to reject this measure. I hope that they will take MUCH further steps in developing a system in which all people - not simply the senators, the rich, the police, and the criminals - are entitled to carry firearms on a daily basis, an option which is not now available to the normal person who cannot pay thousands of dollars a year, renewing his license on a yearly basis. Perhaps, and I pray that it will be, this will be a catalyst for change in that society. As someone who loves Brazil, who would love to take my soon-to-be bride there, perhaps even to live there and teach part-time, I hate the fact that I do not have access to the protection that I would need if I were to take my loved-ones there. I hope that will change.
larry starling
Member
+1 to that!!!!Crosshair said:Way to go Brazil.
cls12vg30
Member
...Added to my list of favorite quotes....
viva Brasil.
As Gaiudo said, in that type of situation where the authorities cannot be trusted to serve and protect, a gun in hand is the only thing seperating a peaceful citizen from having to stand by and watch his family brutalized......
But let us not believe that this sort of thing is only normal in South America, the M.E., or other "Third World" regions. I think New Orleans showed us all that our own comfortable little communities can become "Third World" at the drop of a hat. Sometimes I think "First World", "Third World", are just first and third place in the number of foolish illusions they hold.
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