Breaking News 2A SCOTUS CHALLENGE!!!

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I'm with you on this 100% Mr Shamaya. When I first saw this I recognized the Importance of it immediatly and posted it or all the RKBA and shooting sites that I frequent. I would also like to inform you that The Second Amendment Coalition would also like to place our support behind this as well as our media resources. I'm sending you a PM with some contact information to our organization.
 
With Emerson in the 5th Circuit recently standing correctly on RKBA, the opposed circuits issue is definitely in play.

Angel is right. This is the main reason I have any hope that SCOTUS will take this case. With 2 circuits flatly disagreeing on such a major issue in the Bill of Rights, it would seem the SC has to step in and resolve the issue. OTOH, government frequently doesn't do things that it would seem they have to do.
 
This case isn't about the 2nd Amendment at the federal level - it is about the 14th Amendment.

Unless SCOTUS decides to incorporate the Second Amendment, and that would be a pretty big surprise, there is already precedent at the Supreme Court level saying that states are free to infringe on the Second to their heart's content.

The Supreme Court has already recently declined to hear either of two cases concerning the Second (Emerson and another I forget), even though the interpretations (individual and collective) were in conflict with each other. They declined because using either ruling, the same judicial outcome would have occured.

In this case, the Supreme Court can simply point to precedent on incorporation and decline to hear the case - and unless something changes (court makeup) they will.
 
You're right about incorporation. That's the boat they don't want to rock.

Not so sure about this case not being about the 2nd. If they took the case, any ruling would have implications for the 2nd.
 
I think incorporation at this point is highly unlikely. If you look at the case history of the SCOTUS incorporating amendments, its very typical that they give a weak ruling that suggests that the state not violate that right, but doesn't necessarily incorporate it.

Weeks vs US created the exclusionary rule to protect federal citizens from 4th amendment violations, but the benefit of the exclusionary rule was not granted state citizens until Mapp vs Ohio.
 
umm, not exactly. The bill of rights applies to us as federal citizens. We recieved these rights as state citizens through court rulings as per the selective incorporation clause of the 14th.

And what parts of the Second Amendment have been selectively incorporated?
 
2nd has not been incorporated, yet. I edited my post as I noticed your prior post got my point along better than I had worded it (I'm half asleep and did not read all the responses).

Someone ought to inform them that they need to be pursuing this case on 14th grounds, not 2nd. Even if the 2nd is incorporated, its doubtful that it will be as a strong individual right.
 
Umm...

Russ said:
It has only been heard by a 3 judge panel. Unless the whole 9th hears it, SCOTUS isn't going to take it.
I shared that statement with a man who has been arguing in the Supreme Court and petitioning the Supreme Court for hearings for three decades.

He shared the following:
"The notion that the S Ct only hears appeals from en banc decisions is...unresearched, not fact based... MOST of the cases heard by the S Ct are form 3-J decisions. I rarely petitioned for en banc for that reason."
That's an excerpt, to remove more colorful language, so as not to unnecessarily offend. No offense is intended at all, Russ -- I've been guilty of playing attorney on the internet myself, so I cannot cast any stones here, lest I break my own glass house. But I do request that you take more care in the future when referring to our efforts to right this country and stop the assaults on our countrymen.

Godspeed.
 
Nothing to celebrate until the Supremes grant certiorari. Even if they do, we must reserve ourselves until a decision is rendered in our favor.

Makes me glad Bush is at the helm. We won't get any loose and liberal replacements on the Supremes.
 
Even if the supreme court would have taken Emerson they could have ruled the case without touching the 2nd in any fashion. The statement in Emerson about the 2nd being an individual right is nothing more than dicta which is essentially meaningless. The concurring opinion in Emerson states this.

The whole idea of incorporation is one of the best chances for the 2nd. WHen incorporation first began the idea of total incorporation of the bill of rights was expressly denounced by SCOTUS. It wasnt until later rulings in the 1960's under the Warren court that most of the BoR was incorporated. The exceptions remain as the 2nd, 3rd and 7th. A good incorporation case is the best shot. The 14th has been expanded during the last 40 years which might give us a chance. Another way might just be under the liberty clause in the 14th by assuming that it is a fundamental right and forgo the 2nd all together.
 
Publius said:
Any thoughts about the incorporation issue, Angel?
I'm assuming you mean the thoughts from our legal team, including our chief legal advisor. My own thoughts are very unimportant, comparatively speaking.

Here's what I got back when inquiring about how best to respond to people who think "incorporation" is some kind of tough battle once cert is granted:
"The Fifth and Ninth Circuits both agree expressly, if those folks would only read the opinions, that the Supreme Court decisions on incorporation reach the Second Amendment and require that Presser v Illinois be ignored, because the Supreme Court would obviously ignore them when the question came up. ... In oral argument I would give that non-issue 30 seconds and the Justices would nod and say that is totally obvious, like sunrise tomorrow, move on. ... Presser was 1886 ... The CAs do not have to follow such ancient cases, when almost all of the other amendments have been absorbed. Adding the 2A under either clause of the Fourteenth Amendment is today a no brainer."
FYI, Publius, when I first began dialoguing with this gentleman some weeks back, I thought he was overconfident. Thanks to his patience with my ignorance, I now see that he is the kind of legal genius our side do desperately needs. When it comes to talking law, and especially talking about how to win in 2A's battle in the Supreme Court, I'm barely fit enough to clean his boots. Go look at his record. Can you find any RKBA heavyweight attorney with those kinds of credentials? If so, show me just one.
 
Ask yourself these questions:

Who was the last person to become a Supreme Court Justice?

Would you say that person is pro or anti-gun?

What are the odds we will lose a Second Amendment ruling?

What are the chances an anti-gun Supreme Court Justice may retire in the next couple of years?

What are the chances we could confirm a member of the Supreme Court who would be friendly to the Second Amendment in the next couple of years?

Who would benefit more by rushing a Second Amendment ruling now instead of waiting?

Do you think the NRA, SAF, SAS or JPFO know the answers to these questions?
 
Rehnquist - appointed Nixon 1971, born 1924
Stevens - appointed Nixon 1975, born 1920
O'Connor - appointed Reagan 1981, born 1930
Scalia - appointed Reagan 1986, born 1936
Kennedy - appointed Reagan 1988, born 1936
Souter - appointed Bush 1990, born 1939
Thomas - appointed Bush 1991, born 1948
Ginsberg - appointed Klintoon 1993, born 1933
Breyer - appointed Klintoon 1994, born 1938

Who was the last person to become a Supreme Court Justice?
--- Breyer
Would you say that person is pro or anti-gun?
--- anti
What are the odds we will lose a Second Amendment ruling?
--- dunno
What are the chances an anti-gun Supreme Court Justice may retire in the next couple of years?
--- dunno, Stevens is very old though.
What are the chances we could confirm a member of the Supreme Court who would be friendly to the Second Amendment in the next couple of years?
--- dunno, depends on when a vacancy opens up, and if GWB is reelected
Who would benefit more by rushing a Second Amendment ruling now instead of waiting?
--- people lose, because a right delayed is a right denied.
Do you think the NRA, SAF, SAS or JPFO know the answers to these questions?
--- yes... a very pro-2A ruling would dry up NRA/SAF/SAS/JPFO contributions, so would an anti-2A ruling. The big dogs want a status quo to milk members for all they are worth. Trick is to appear to be making some inroads into restoration of the 2A, while not substantially changing the status quo.

I know that my NRA-ILA contributions will go down to nothing if a pro-2A decision is passed. Gonna need the $$$ to get some Sport Utility Rifles and Standard Capacity Magazines. :D:evil:
 
Good Questions.

"What are the odds we will lose a Second Amendment ruling?"
If we don't fight for a correct ruling, the odds of winning one are 0%.

If we wait until some terrorist, felon, child rapist gets a 2A argument heard, the odds of losing are much higher than 50%.

If Silveira v. Lockyer gets heard, the odds of winning are much better than 50%.
"What are the chances an anti-gun Supreme Court Justice may retire in the next couple of years?
Too iffy to bet on it, but my answer is "slim". The anti-gunners are the liberals, and they'll hold on in hopes that Bush gets replaced in the '04 election.

Chances are better that a Justice will retire in the next 6 years, though. Are you willing to base Liberty on the hope that Bush will be reelected AND that he will appoint a strict Constitutionalist who will rule correctly? I think he'll lose, as a direct result of selling gunowners out when it comes time to sunset the AW ban -- and that he'll also support a sellout against a case fought to undo a state AW ban. (Bush/Ashcroft will probably come out against Silveira even being heard.) And who he's floating as a possible Justice isn't exactly a Scalia.

The Bush/Ashcroft "alllies" took a stand that the law Emerson challenged was not a violation of the Second Amendment -- proving that the administration is run by liars (a word that is far too kind) who put politics above fundamental rights. I see no reason to bet on such people suddenly living up to their phony RKBA rhetoric.
What are the chances we could confirm a member of the Supreme Court who would be friendly to the Second Amendment in the next couple of years?
Fair to very poor, leaning toward very poor.
Who would benefit more by rushing a Second Amendment ruling now instead of waiting?
Gunowners. Constitutionalists. Patriots. People in prison for owning firearms that are protected by 2A. People being prosecuted for owning firearms that are protected by 2A. People who live in areas where bearing arms is banned. Etc.
Do you think the NRA, SAF, SAS or JPFO know the answers to these questions?
I tend to think NRA does. (SAF tried to get Emerson heard -- a case where a guy had allegedly pulled a gun on his wife.) I think at least in terms of NRA, they don't want S.Ct. to hear Silveira because it would cost them millions of dollars in annual revenue, for two primary reasons: 1) It's not their case, and they are on record for having tried to kill it. 2) If Silveira is heard, chances are very high it will be a victory on at least the two fundamental issues before the court, assuring that people who fund gun rights organizations will go back to filling gun cabinets and game tags.

I also believe that NRA's record of opposition to Silveira and the fact that no large gun rights organizations are aggressively supporting the case is a very good impetus to have the Justices agree to hear the case. (But you can bet NRA and many other groups will be falling all over themselves to file amicus curiae briefs if/when S.Ct. agrees to hear the case.)

I also believe the fact that the experienced litigator helping design the strategy is who he is stacks the deck heavily in our favor on many fronts unreachable by the big, well-established groups.
 
Stevens - appointed Nixon 1975, born 1920

Actually, Stevens was appointed by Ford.

http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/justices/stevens.bio.html

It will be interesting to see of the lawsuit filed Monday in DC's Federal District Court comes into play. It's got to help the momentum... Not that I think that case will win (a Clinton appointee on the bench), but it will keep the issue on the front burner, where it has not been since 1939.
 
The Fifth and Ninth Circuits both agree expressly, if those folks would only read the opinions, that the Supreme Court decisions on incorporation reach the Second Amendment and require that Presser v Illinois be ignored

I'd be more than happy to read the opinions mentioned if someone would reference the cases that show this.
 
Publius said:
Thanks, Angel. I don't think anyone's ever been nicer when telling me I'm a century behind the times.
Just glad you're not offended as I certainly meant no harm. You're also not alone. Many of the misconceptions about a 2A Supreme Court battle under which I was operating are quite common. Some things I took for granted about what it would take to win such a case were built on pure ignorance -- but they are accepted as "common knowledge" among the misinformed gun rights community.

Bartholomew Roberts said:
I'd be more than happy to read the opinions mentioned if someone would reference the cases that show this.
There are times to share legal strategies, and there are times not to. Given the fact that not only the anti-gunners want us to lose but that at least some people and at least one organization on "our" side (supposedly) want Silveira to die on the vine, presenting legal strategies at this juncture wouldn't be prudent.

However, once it's time to petition for the S.Ct. hearing, I imagine we'll be publishing that petition in toto for all to see. When we do, many new approaches not taken in previous 2A cases will be apparent to the legal minded. And if the Silveira cert. petition isn't granted, I'll bet you a brand new rifle that the groundbreaking material contained therein will be pirated for future use by attorneys who are currently considered the brightest minds in the RKBA movement.
 
There are times to share legal strategies, and there are times not to. Given the fact that not only the anti-gunners want us to lose but that at least some people and at least one organization on "our" side (supposedly) want Silveira to die on the vine, presenting legal strategies at this juncture wouldn't be prudent.

I am not asking anyone to share legal strategies. I simply expressed my opinion that prior rulings on incorporation made this attempt DOA. I was informed that there were cases and opinions in both the Fifth and Ninth circuit that proved my opinion wrong. All I am asking for is the names of those cases so I can look them up and educate myself - without that knowledge I'll have to go with what I already know and that knowledge says that this case is a dead issue before the Supreme Court.
 
Twoblink: taking newbies to the range is essential...but the limiting factor is the amount of time we have, not even the money (.22 ammo is cheap).

On the legal challenge: best we support a challenge that was planned and brought by competent people. The other alternative is ending up with the likes of Miller and having the decisions of that sort end up as precedents. In my opinion, this action is worth supporting, both with money and with links from other forums and web sites.
 
Thanks for floating this. It will be much easier to keep up with, and it will get many more views.
 
Shamaya wrote:

"But I do request that you take more care in the future when referring to our efforts to right this country and stop the assaults on our countrymen."

You throw this little blurb in after you say no offense? I take offense to your tone. If you are going to quote someone, you really should attribute it to them. Who is this all knowing attorney?

Perhaps I erred and the case does not have to go before the full 9th before SCOTUS will consider it. It was certainly not out of a desire to assault our "countrymen's" rights. Perhaps I assumed it from the fact that Mr. Gorski requested that the whole 9th Circuit hear his argument after the 3 judge panel ruled?

I am well aware of the assaults made on "our countrymen" by the government of California. It would be wonderful to have the differing intrerpretations of the Second Amendment between the 5th and the 9th decided once and for all in our favor. However, based the refusal of the SCOTUS to take on Emerson or other recent 2nd Amendment cases, I don't hold out much hope that they will hear Gorski's case.

That's my opinion and you are welcome to yours. Time will prove who is better at predicting the future.

Russ
 
There's so much going on with this case now, it's almost a "quagmire", but enough things are going right that I too hope it goes "all the way".

Jeez, where do we start?

* The 9th Circuit is now "internally split" on exactly HOW our rights are to be stripped! In the previous cases of Fresno Rifle (1989 I think?), Hickman (1995) and California AG Lockyer's position paper on the RKBA, they all took the position that regardless of what the 2nd Amendment is, it cannot limit state powers due to lack of incorporation. In Reinhard's Silveira ruling, he torpedoed that by noting that Presser vs. Illinois (1886) and Cruickshank (1875) are "outdated" and no longer to be relied on as authority for the 2nd not applying to the states.

Someone mentioned that about Presser earlier in this thread. Presser really relies on Cruikshank as it's foundation, and it's Cruikshank that's vulnerable. It was basically a wildly pro-KKK decision by the USSC, and will last all of about 5 seconds once the USSC sees somebody stupid enough to rely on it (like Lockyer, or HCI, or VPC, or LCAV and other such morons).

* I assume the fact that Silveira disagrees with previous 9th Circuit opinions is why Gary Gorski and co decided to try En Banc. I consider En Banc worth trying because A), we might even win (granted, not likely in the 9th!) and B), it gives Dubya a chance to fill retiree vacancies at the USSC. Despite the dissapointments of the Dubya administration post-9/11, his track record on picking judges is good and the people he's been considering lately as front-runners have been uniformly excellent.

* The NRA are nervous about Silveira for a number of reasons. It's a really sucky circuit, it's about highly politicized "assault rifles" that the media has made the general public nervous on, Gorski made minor mistakes in his brief (such as leading off with a Hitler quote that is a known "urban legend") and then to top it off, Gary got dragged into a giant public pissing with Chuck Michel, which has helped nobody.

Most of what's here:

http://keepandbeararms.com/Silveira/scotus.asp

...is pretty good. But sadly, it now also contains an outright lie written by Brian Puckett:

--------------------
The reasons for this are many. They include the effect of anti-gun propaganda generated by the government and communications media, and the failure of increasingly socialized, urbanized, history-illiterate citizens to understand the importance of an armed citizenry in maintaining freedom. Also included is the fact that the largest gun-rights organization, the NRA, has no courts-related strategy for regaining our lost rights, or even maintaining the status quo. Their plan, and the plan of the gun community in general, is the tactical non-plan of simply reacting to the assaults of the anti-gun forces.
--------------------

It's been revealed as a lie when the NRA backed the lawsuit against the DC general gun ban by Cato institute legal scholars. The NRA wants to fight in DC because:

* Better courts, and a faster path to the USSC;

* It's a general ban on even HOME DEFENSE, which most people would see as "way too much". (It's also a ban on street defense and more and it's all being fought in this one case.)

Anyways. Given the NRA's current support for another offensive gameplan, I would ask that Angel edit the Silveira site.

I support both the Silveira effort and the Cato/NRA plan in DC.
 
Okay.

Russ said:
Shamaya wrote:

"But I do request that you take more care in the future when referring to our efforts to right this country and stop the assaults on our countrymen."

You throw this little blurb in after you say no offense? I take offense to your tone. If you are going to quote someone, you really should attribute it to them. Who is this all knowing attorney?

Perhaps I erred and the case does not have to go before the full 9th before SCOTUS will consider it. It was certainly not out of a desire to assault our "countrymen's" rights. Perhaps I assumed it from the fact that Mr. Gorski requested that the whole 9th Circuit hear his argument after the 3 judge panel ruled?
If requesting that you take more care when refering to our efforts after you made a false statement about our efforts offends you -- even when I told you no offense is intended -- then I don't know what else to say, Russ. I never insinuated that your motives were less than honorable; I simply corrected your misstatement about our efforts and made a fair request.

The attorney is referenced repeatedly in the original link that started this entire thread. (I invite you to read the first post on this thread and the link provided.) I've also referred to him a few times and provided a link to information about him. Feel free to read it if you are so inclined: http://KeepAndBearArms.com/lucas/roy.asp

And I wouldn't refer to him as "all knowing," personally. He's just a few light years further down the road on the subject matter than you and I combined.

I also do not fault you for making a false assumption, Russ. We've all done it. I do, however, reiterate my request that you take more care when referring to our efforts; I don't want people thinking inaccurate statements based on erroneous assumptions are correct or factual when they aren't. I don't think that's asking much. And I hope you have a nice weekend.
 
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