Breech loading BP

[Comfortably Dumb]

So I understand that blackpowder loads, either loaded through the muzzle or in a cartridge, must leave no air gap.
But how does a breech loader, like a '63 Sharps, work without some kind of ram to compress the powder?
I'd like to get into BP, and am trying to understand the mechanics of it.
Thanks in advance...

 

[EljaySL]

Don't those use paper cartridges?

http://hahnmachineworks.com/html/PaperCartridge.html

 

[Jim K]

I have been reading for years that any air gap between the powder and bullet in a BP gun (cartridge or muzzle loader) will result in the gun blowing up. I keep reading this, and seeing dire warnings, but I have never had it happen and I have tried to create the blow up with no success (if you can call blowing up a gun "success"!).

NOTE that I am not referring to loading a second bullet, or firing the gun with an obstruction in the barrel. Just a normal load and bullet except that the bullet/ball is ahead of the powder by some distance.

Here are some of the things I have read.

1. The ball/bullet must be firmly seated on the powder, with NO gap whatsoever. Any gap, even 1/16 inch, will cause the gun to blow up.

2. Some gap is OK, up to an inch or so, anything over that will cause the gun to blow up.

3. A gap up to 6-8 inches is OK, but anything over that will cause a blow up.

4. Compressing the powder with the ball will cause the gun to blow up. (See #1)

5. Blow ups won't happen with "real" black powder, only with BP substitutes.

6. Blow ups won't happen with BP substitutes, only with "real" BP.

I am sure there are other stories, but here is what I want to hear about:

1. An actual case YOU (not "somebody") has actually experienced a BP rifle or handgun blowing up due to an air gap.

2. If you have had or have witnessed such an experience, are you 100% CERTAIN that there was no second ball/bullet involved.

3. If you have had or witnessed such a blow up, do you know how great was the air gap?

If you can tell me of such an occurrence, please give the type of gun, make, and model, plus the type of powder involved, and also what happened to prevent seating the ball on the powder.

Remember, I don't want a regurgitation of some warnings from gunzines. If it didn't happen to you, or in your immediate presence, and you didn't load or witness loading the gun, your story is hearsay and of zero interest.

Jim

 

[Snaggletooth]

Ive talked to Charlie Hahn about the loading of tubes,(he makes them and is the Charlie of Charlies tubes)..He is the go to man as far as Im concerned about Sharps Rifles. He always answers my emails and phone calls andy modified a paper cutter I have in 54 cal.

 

[AlexanderA]

But how does a breech loader, like a '63 Sharps, work without some kind of ram to compress the powder?

When you load a Sharps, the bullet is stopped by contact with the rifling. Then the back end of the paper cartridge (and any excess powder) is sheared off by the rising breechblock. This is actually safer than a muzzleloader because it's impossible to overload it wih powder, or double load it.

 

[sharps59]

Not 100 % true. those of us using charlies tube and those of us shooting in the N-ssa are not using full chamber loads. my chamber take charies tubes that are 1 7/8" lg I'm only using 38 grn 2ffg. I load powder then a disc to hold it in place. no filler as recommended by Charlie. when I do paper cart. I do the same. the tubes and my cart both sit flush w the back of the breach no cutting. if youy are cutting and losing powder you have know idea how many grn of powder you are actualy shooting. and that is not a good thing for accuracy. nor do you want loose powder on the top of your breach block or any where near you.. I do not know why are space is ok in a sharps but it is. even if you fill the chamber and close it there is space due to the gas check having a void around the cone. there for you could never compress the powder..

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

breech load

I have both the 1863 Sharps and the 1857 Smith.
In both I ordered the brass cartridges for them.
I also use paper cartridges and bulk
In the sharps place the projectile in the chamber, fill the back with powder till full.
Closing the breech wil eliminate the air gap. However the powder is not compressed. BP doesn't really need to be compressed to function correctly.

You can bulk load the Smith, even though there will be an airgap at back of powder. But doesn't seem to hurt.
When Making paper cartridges, make them longer so closing the action will compress the powder somewhat and possibly burst the paper.

The smith brass cartridges are longer and loaded properly, the breech will force the cartridge snug into the chamber and fit tight up against the back end of the cartridge eliminating any air gap.

 

[BCRider]

Like many things in life there's no absolutes.

Another thread made mention of how some black powder match shooters will breech seat the bullet than follow that up with a cartridge of black powder with a retention card wad in the mouth. Done this way there's just no way to avoid a small air gap. Yet reports were that it felt like a normal black powder charge.

Now there's two things at work there. First is that the gap is obviously pretty small and represents only a few grains worth of powder. We aren't talking about a muzzle loader where the ball sticks with a couple of inches or more of the bore to go before seating on the powder. So there's the SCALE of any air space. Also by using a card or lube wad of some sort we're holding the powder in a pack instead of letting it flow and lay in an oversize chamber. So we should still see the ignition and burn occur progressively along the length of the powder pack. On the other hand a loose charge laying with a significant open area over top of the length of the load will likely see the flame front travel and stir up the powder which is going to produce a full ignition of all the powder at once. Which is pretty much a pipe bomb in that case.

So it would seem that the key is to hold the powder in a consistent size pack so it cannot flow around. Typically this means a compressed packing. Which may well be the key and why the "blank" cartridge powder loads can safely and consistently push the spaced forward bullets in such cases. Perhaps all we need to do is ensure that the powder isn't actually LOOSE in the chamber or in the casing.