Bring back the Mauser C96 as a PDW?

[cluttonfred]

OK, I am preparing to get flamed, I know, but here goes anyway.

The PDW concept has been around for a while. The old M1 Carbine was one example (before the term existed) and there is the FN P90, but I am thinking more of weapons that can be carried in a holster like a pistol but still reach out and touch someone at longer ranges. The HK MP5K qualifies (barely) and the HK MP7 PDW, but even older are the pistols with detachable shoulder stocks like the Browing HP, Luger and, especially, the Mauser C96 with it's high-velocity round, arguably more useful in a carbine than 9mm.

So what about bringing back the Mauser C96, not a a gun, but as a concept? For anyone not familiar with Winston Churchill's favorite pistol, here are some links:

Wikipedia on Mauser C96

Neat article on Chinese use of C96 and clones

It seems to me that a modern, plastic fantastic pistol in Mauser C96-configuration (box magazine in front of the trigger guard, with a detachable or foldaway shoulder stock) could make a great sidearm for rear-echelon troops and those who must lug heavy weapons, radios, what have you.

While the 5.7mm and similar cartridges have questionable stopping power, there is no doubt that their high velocity makes it much easier to hit something at range, and their armor-piercing ability is a plus up close. A modern C96-style pistol in 5.7mm could weigh little more than a full-size auto pistol yet offer the ability to engage targets consistently at beyond pistol range. FN says 150m for the P90, so let's say this C96 PDW would be good to 100m or more.

The FN Five-SeveN 5.7 mm pistol already carries 20 rounds in the grip, with a forward magazine it should be possible to up that to 30 without making it too awkward (maybe a quadruple column "coffin" magazine like the WWII Suomi SMGs). With a three-round burst capabililty, that's good hit probablity for ten targets before reloading.

Would you want something like this in place of an M4 or an AK-47? Of course not. But just like you should never bring a knife to a gun fight, it's not much good to bring a pistol to a firefight when the other guy has a rifle. A Mauser C96-style PDW, IMHO, would be better than anything else that you could carry on your hip.

OK, flame away!

PS--I realize that a long-barrelled, burst-capable FN Five-SeveN with a shoulder stock would work too, but it wouldn't have that Han Solo allure.

 

[DSAPT9]

Take a look at the Brugger & Thomet MP9. You can get several holsters for easy carry, foldable stock for compact rifle use. It is very accurate and fun to shot. Not sure it is what you’re after but to me it is a modern day version.

http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BTTP9SFSBR

 

[DougDubya]

The classic 7.63mm Mauser round is a sort of spiritual father of the smaller caliber PDW rounds in use today. Lots of velocity and sectional density to provide excellent penetration.

However, the 5.7mm with a good hollowpoint should cause great wounding effects. Hunters use .22 Magnum rimfires to kill cougars, and out of the FN Five Seven, the 5.7 has .22 Magnum Rimfire velocities, if not better designed bullets. The HK's teeny 4.85mm rounds seem a bit more iffy to me.

I would not mind a 20-round PDW that is a clone of Han Solo's blaster. Not one iota. The bonus of 7.63mm Mauser vs. 5.7mm FN (larger caliber, more bullet weight) is only slight icing on a tasty package.

 

[Jim Watson]

Or you could build Jeff Cooper's Thumper in the same envelope.
The difference being that you would have to teach the users to shoot instead of spray and pray.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

If it has a shoulder stock it would have to have a 16-inch barrel to avoid being NFA regulated, therefore no easier to carry or use than, say, a M4 carbine. And if it were manufactured to its original design - with all those intricately machined and fitted small parts - it would probably be horrendously expensive.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

We could always change the law (that's a joke, son, a joke.)

If we did change the law, I have a shoulder stock design for my Colt Woodsman. The Mauser shoulder stock, in my opinion, would not be so effective.

 

[Ash]

Well, all PDW's are generally NFA kind of things anyway, so a modernized Broomhandle would be no different.

Ash

 

[BigG]

The C96 was a prop-up design locking system where a small block of steel locked the breech bolt to the frame until the recoil caused it to drop. Probably not a candidate for plastic fantastic.

The gun was put together without screws of any kind except the ones holding the grips on. Pretty cool design but obsolete almost from the git go.

 

[DougDubya]

I like the Mauser caliber. A good modern design aping that look would rock.

 

[Eightball]

You mean this thing?

http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg84-e.htm

 

[Ash]

Yeah, but with a better trigger, one that doesn't remind me of shooting a cordless drill.

Ash

 

[Jim Watson]

Glock 18 maybe?
There is a shoulder stock for it.

And a barrel change to .30 Luger or .22 Lowenstein to make it into a needleblower.

 

[modifiedbrowning]

Czech Skorpion in a better caliber, maybe? What about the Jati-Matic?

 

[Geronimo45]

I get the idea that FA for the rear echelon folks might be a (very) bad idea (imagine an ND with a FA). Current wisdom holds that FA is only for the highly-trained, AFAIK.

 

[Ash]

But PDW's are, with the exception of the old M1 Carbine, autos. Even the M2's were autos, so in practice it may not be the case. However, a guy with minimal arms training, who's main job is repairing a truck or doing computer work, is more likely to be careless with his weapon, I suppose.

Ash

 

[Famaldehide Face]

Or bring back the Bergmann Bayard in full automatic with an extended magazine

 

[cluttonfred]

Interestingly, despite the California ban on machine pistol-style like the Intratec Tec-9 by effectively requiring the detachable magazine to be in the handgrip, it appears that a 10-shot Mauser C96-style pistol would not be restricted if the magazine were fixed (i.e. loaded from stripper clips).

Per the California Attorney General Assault Weapons Identification Guide, the general definition of a pistol as an assault weapon is as follows.

Pistols
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:

(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to
fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.​

(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

But I bet such a gun, maybe in 45ACP like the old Chinese copies, or better yet, how about .30 carbine, would really irritate the anti-gun types.

 

[cluttonfred]

By the way, modifiedbrowning, I like the idea of the Skorpion, not a copy per se, but another example of how to reduce the size down to something holsterable.

Personally, I think that even the military version could do without full auto if it had a good, light trigger, clear sights and low recoil to allow rapid aimed semi-auto fire.

I admit that there I times that full auto would be desirable, but in the PDW context we are talking about reducing the weight and encumbrance on the non-rifleman soldier, and that includes ammo load. Say, four 30-round magazines is plenty for rear echelon use in semi-auto. At full auto, a couple of seconds of fire per magazine, that starts to look like not very much.

I think the WWII loadout for an M1-carbine-equipped soldier was pretty limited, just a few magazines and a bandolier of stripper clips, though I can't find the exact amount.

 

[Famaldehide Face]

Now with an extended magazine, Just install full automatic capability

 

[Jim K]

Just for fun, have any of you folks ever actually fired a pistol with a shoulder stock? FWIW, with the normal length pistol and stock (e.g., a BHP with the holster stock) the muzzle is so close to the left ear that firing is downright painful. Since it is hard to imagine a personal defense situation that would allow one to put on muffs, I think I will take a pass on a stocked pistol.

(The C96 is a bit better, with its longer barrel and stock, but still bad, plus being obsolete, horribly awkward, and uncomfortable to shoot because with the stock in place, the rear grip strap tears up the web of the hand.)

Jim

 

[Mavrick12]

Oh yes. Id love that. Whatever Caliber.

Id buy 1 or 3.

 

[mgregg85]

I wish the cheaper companies(ie taurus) would bring back copies of more neat guns like the C96. I like how taurus tried making a SAA and got the gaucho(passable) and the thunderbolt(ok, some problems).

How about the PT-96 in 9mm? That'd be fun and reasonably priced.

I'd love a taurus BAR copy.

 

[HPJeep]

Yes Jim Keenan I have an Inglis Browning HP with a shoulder stock and it makes it quite fun to shoot at longer distances. I do not have problems with the muzzle blast though. I do not own but have shot Lugers, C96 and a 1911A1 with shoulder stocks and enjoyed shooting them. The C96 was the most fun but the curiosity factor of the Government Model with stock was pretty high. The Luger oozes charisma.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Just for fun, have any of you folks ever actually fired a pistol with a shoulder stock? FWIW, with the normal length pistol and stock (e.g., a BHP with the holster stock) the muzzle is so close to the left ear that firing is downright painful. Since it is hard to imagine a personal defense situation that would allow one to put on muffs, I think I will take a pass on a stocked pistol.

We captured a couple of Browning Hi-Powers in Viet Nam -- made by Inglis of Canada, sent to the Nationalist Chinese, captured by the Chi Coms, and eventually given to the NVA. One of these had the holster-nailed-to-a-board shoulder stock.

I can't tell you how accurate they were -- the bores were rusted out from firing corrosive ammunition. But the blast was as you say, and the sights were much too close to the eye.

I designed a shoulder stock for my Colt Woodsman (but never made it -- the Government is too up tight about things like that while ignoring the gas crisis.) In my design, hold the pistol in an isosceles grip, arms fully extended. Now imagine a butt stock reaching all the way back to the shoulder, with a comb that would support your face in the normal firing position.

 

[gripper]

Personally, I'd love a C96 Broomie,made current and stout enough for the hot Czech 7.62X25's(was that M48 ??)...Probably be prohibitely expensive to make as original ( finely machined and all that) but polymer ( as was suggested by anearlier poster) would work well...I may have also mused in th epast about a civvy legal Stechkin APS in both the 9 X 18 as well as 7.62.Oh well , I can dream....