Brit Constable Murdered, Debate Opens on Arming Police

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I notice only one responder to this thread is actually located in England.

You must realise that it is dangerous to pass judgement on a country based on your social experiences, when you have not even been there.....or not even left your own country. And I don't mean this to be put forth in an argumentitive, accusing manner. Its just something I say from personal experience.

I have not public opinion on this matter, as I have only stayed in England for 2 months (and that was this year). But, don't be fooled, there are armed police in Britian. During my time in London, it was not uncommon to see groups of cops marching around with sub-machine guns, or driving around in silver or red BMWs. It looked like the MP5 they were carrying. I also spotted a fair few cops (both uniformed, and plain clothed) carrying glocks, and pretty much all of the metropolitain police were wearing body armour.
 
Actually, more and more police in England are armed.

All the "Panda Car" police carry sidearms and have Submachineguns in the "boot" there are other armed officers and the regular police wear armour and pack non-lethals (pepper spray and electrics) The old American delusions about the "Bobbies" are seriously out of date.

I'm told Makarovs are common amoung the criminal classes, being cheap and available from the former Warpac countries. Heavily organized drug gangs rule large areas of major cities and the paid off politicos restrain the Police and the Queen's cattle. It's getting almost as bad as Democrat occupied cities in the USofA.

Geoff
Who is not spared his delusions by the internet. :eek:
 
I had the chance to talk with a couple of "London's Finest" last year, when they were "on holiday" in the USA. They were PRO-GUN, even for the citizens, and said that at least 50% of their fellow Bobbie's felt the same way!

They also said that it was fairly easy to request being armed while on patrol. They had to submit the request to their "Home Office", with an explanation of the reason for carrying the firearm.
Most of the time, their requests were approved, but they were required to carry the issued weapon concealed.

HMM! The Canadian Border Guard are pleading for firearm authorization!
 
Yep it's hell here.

Excuse me, the yardies are beating down my door, which I've only just repaired after the Russians visited last week.

Iain
Who tries not to engage in funny ideas about the US as much as some THR members like to engage in funny ideas about the UK.
 
I think you were posed some legitimate points Ilian, why did you choose continue with the self righteous indignation in favor of actually participating the reasonable portion of the debate that you seem to imply is absent?
 
It is interesting to compare the laws in different countries to see the differences between citizens and subjects.

http://wfsa.net/Intl_Leg/Intl_splash.htm is a website that features information on the gun laws from:

* Austria
* Australia
* Canada
* Denmark
* European Union (EU)
* France
* Finland
* Germany
* Ireland
* Italy
* Spain
* Sweden
* Switzerland
* United Kingdom

It is always fun to have the facts when debating laws.


TIZ
 
Without another poll there is no answer to your question. I've seen the 1995 poll too, I've also been reading the BBC 'Have your Say' debate on this issue, and aside from the emotive kneejerk reactions that incidents like this cause, many of those who stated that they are police officers also stated that they didn't want to carry guns. That's anecdotal of course. The person who may have a better finger on the pulse is agricola.

Now, I could be wrong but I believe the last high profile shooting of a police officer was in Leeds on Boxing Day 2003. That's nearly two years ago. The fact that this shooting is as high profile as it is/was (top story on the national news) indicates to me the relative rarity of these occurances. Discussions about arming the police straight after this are bound to be as kneejerk as the call from a former high profile policeman to reinstate capital punishment for cop killers.

Take a look at - http://www.policememorial.org.uk/NationalRoll/NationalRoll.htm

Going through 2004 and 2003 I can find 4 police officers killed deliberately by criminal actions. Two were stabbed, one was dragged along by a car and one was shot. This isn't Beirut.
 
this debate trudges around the newspapers every time something like this happens. After a few days it'll all subside again.
If they did ever arm all of them it would create several problems:-
(i) they already find it difficult enough to get enough volunteers to do the gun stuff who can pass the psychological evaluation and the training standards.
(ii) some (quite a lot unless you lower the standard) would be deemed unfit. Do you fire them all and hire some more? If not what do you do with them?
(iii) some will refuse to do it anyway on grounds of conscience "I didn't join the police to kill people" and they would presumably have to be fired and paid off with huge compensation, to which they would almost certainly be legally entitled under the Human Rights Act.
All of which leaves them with even fewer officers than they've got already.
 
Iain said:
Yep it's hell here.

Excuse me, the yardies are beating down my door, which I've only just repaired after the Russians visited last week.

Iain
Who tries not to engage in funny ideas about the US as much as some THR members like to engage in funny ideas about the UK.

Are you denying that my little bag of toys would get me hard time over there? I recall earlier this year an MP over there had his entire career destroyed over a photo of him posing with an old levergun. The UK has gone absolutely bat excrement INSANE on this issue. I don't see anything like the UK or Australia style of public anti-gun hysteria even in European nations. There the laws are strict but you can still go to your gun clubs.

I don't think it's funny, it's tragic. The UK citizens, once proud, seem to have totally lost their minds and their backbones on this issue. Turn the clock back 100 years and attitudes in the UK regarding firearms were completely different. Even Oscar Wilde packed heat. Hopefully one day the Brits will wake up and shake off their socialist overlords.

It is interesting to note, however, that one of the few other places on the planet where the police are unarmed is in certain rural Alaska villages where civilian firearm ownership is nearly 100%. The only ones *not* armed are the police.
 
I don't think it's particularly funny either and my post wasn't directed towards your comments but rather towards the post that suggested that British inner cities are ruled by drug gangs.

This really isn't about gun control. I know every thread about the UK needs to be about gun control, but this one really isn't. It's about whether or not the British police should be armed in the light of the shooting of a police officer. It's not about the fear of guns, even in the hands of armed police but rather a debate about whether or not routinely armed police are actually necessary.

15 police officers killed in the last ten years of which three were shot seems to indicate that the debate isn't exactly clear cut. Like I said, we're not talking Beirut, we're talking a country in which murder of police officers is actually rare, it surprised me how rare.

http://www.policememorial.org.uk/LestWeForget/centuryofsacrifice.htm
 
Iain said:
I don't think it's particularly funny either and my post wasn't directed towards your comments but rather towards the post that suggested that British inner cities are ruled by drug gangs.

This really isn't about gun control. I know every thread about the UK needs to be about gun control, but this one really isn't. It's about whether or not the British police should be armed in the light of the shooting of a police officer. It's not about the fear of guns, even in the hands of armed police but rather a debate about whether or not routinely armed police are actually necessary.

15 police officers killed in the last ten years of which three were shot seems to indicate that the debate isn't exactly clear cut. Like I said, we're not talking Beirut, we're talking a country in which murder of police officers is actually rare, it surprised me how rare.

http://www.policememorial.org.uk/LestWeForget/centuryofsacrifice.htm


Considering my limited knowledge of all facts Brit, I still find I need to include the distinction that Brits continue to make regarding "offensive" and "defensive" weapons. It's illegal there to carry a pointy umbrella, a knife of any effective length or anything else that might just possibly be used against someone else in defense of self, let alone an evil gun, and most especially to defend against protected criminals. This extends to prohibiting anything considered after the fact to be a weapon that could possibly be carried for defense.

Therefore, since it is nothing more than common knowledge that British police rarely show up prior to a crime, they have very little need for "defensive" weapons, and absolutely NO need for "offensive" weapons. Lastly, since all weapons are primarily "offensive" the Brit Bobbies have NO reason to carry since their task is defense of "subjects" and the realm.
 
... It's not about the fear of guns, even in the hands of armed police but rather a debate about whether or not routinely armed police are actually necessary.

I can't say I'd agree with that. Granted that I don't live in England, but every predominantly English/British discussion I've seen on the internet, and in every English newspaper I read (perhaps excepting the Telegraph) the knee jerk fear of guns seems to be exactly the reason that (the British public anyway) public sentiment favors an unarmed police force.

It terms of crime rates and violence against the police, It would be just as accurate to say that armed police are unneccessary in Singapore, Tokyo, or for that matter Minnesota. The difference being the response of the public.

BTW; I don't for a minute suscribe to the notion that Britain is a hellhole. I'm sure it's a very nice place. I just think it would be nicer if the population wasn't hamstrung by the gun regs and the societal and legal system's notions of what constitutes valid self defense.
 
You're probably not entirely wrong there Stand_Watie. I don't really know why it is that many don't want the police to be armed, but it still seems to me that we are talking about necessity.

Were it really necessary I'd expect any gun related squeamishness would disappear, I doubt there are many who'd want unarmed police to regularly get shot stopping traffic if that were what was happening. We've had an unarmed police for a long time, that is probably a factor too, not just the response of the public to the concept of guns. Arming our regular police now would be a major change to British policing and is bound to provoke a response like disarming the Minnesota police would.

Otherguy - the British police engage is as many house searches and suspect arrests as any other force. Those are circumstances when you get shot at. This recent death came about when responding to an alarm call at a travel agents.

I'm actually a little surprised that people here philosophically support armed police amongst an unarmed populace, some have already pointed this out. The other thing I'm surprised by is that no-one pointed out the problem with the throwaway comment I included earlier about a former top policeman callling for the death penalty for copkillers. His comments were specific to copkillers and I'd have thought that someone would have disagreements with that.
 
Hi there Iain,

Not to be glib, but after conversing with many European friends that live here in good ole Myrtle Beach, SC, it would appear that the "globalization" of Europe has brought a lot more violent crime to areas that were previously percieved by many Americans as relatively safe.

Hence, arming the police for their "own protection and protection of the public" at large doesn't really seem to be much of an issue.

Regardless of the existing prohibitions against gun ownership of handguns, it would be naiive to believe that criminals do not have access to firearms or any other weapon for that matter.

After all, our own experience in this country has shown that criminals do not have a problem aquiring them illegally even with our stringent gun control laws.

Best,

Chris
 
waterhouse said:
"That could endanger the police's relationship with the public, she said."
not if you let the public have the same guns as police it wouldn't.
This is exactly the line I was trying to think of as I was finishing that article.

I'm still not sure how they can so not understand just who it was that they disarmed on that island. They need to rearm the police, and they need to rearm the citizens that realize there will never be enough LEOs to go around.
-
 
Iain said:
You're probably not entirely wrong there Stand_Watie. I don't really know why it is that many don't want the police to be armed, but it still seems to me that we are talking about necessity.

Were it really necessary I'd expect any gun related squeamishness would disappear, I doubt there are many who'd want unarmed police to regularly get shot stopping traffic if that were what was happening. ..

Here you're counting on the British public to determine "necessity". This would be a totally subjective matter I think. Certainly if your underlying belief is that a gun isn't a good defensive tool, but it an offensive tool to be greatly feared in the hands of anyone, "neccessity" would present an entirely different mental hurdle. I suspect that if 100 policeman in England were stabbed to death annually, it would have a lesser impact on the public psyche regarding arming police than if ten police were shot to death. I don't think that should be so, but it is something you have to deal with, and I think probably has to do with 100 years of government demonization of guns.
 
After reading one page of BBC's 'have your say', I can only figure that the British view their police as some kind of Mr. Bean in uniform. Here are some comments by Brits on what happens if you arm cops:

"That would only put more guns on the streets to fall into criminal hands."

"Many readers have already posted - this would increase gun crimes and inevitably desensitise the public when it happens."

"Be under no doubt, if we routinely arm the police this will lead to an increase in the number of people mistakenly shot by the police"

About the only really sensible comment was:

"To do a job you should have the correct tools for it. You dont see a carpenter trying to hit in nails with a sponge do you."

Obviously, most Brits prefer the sponge.
 
Firstly, let me make the obvious comment that this is a tragedy and state that I envy the US position in that the people who did this in most states would be done to death for it.

With regards to arming Police, its important to start off with knowing who is actually armed:

i) the Armed Response Units - every force (in the UK there are around 40-50) will have highly trained officers who carry all the time they are on duty and who should respond to incidents where firearm or other weapon is involved. Certain forces, especially the Met but also Greater Manchester Police, Avon and Somerset Police, Merseyside and West Midlands Police, have rather more of these because of their specific problems. In certain areas of those forces (eg: Lambeth, Hackney, Brent, Moss-side, Toxeth) there will be armed response in the area 24/7. In London these are the white or silver cars you see driving around;

ii) Diplomatic Protection - the Met has a large unit responsible for the exterior protection of Embassies, some Government buildings (especially Downing Street) and patrols between those premises. These are the red Police cars most of you have seen in London;

iii) Royalty Protection - responsible for protection of Royal premises;

iv) Special Branch - parts of SB routinely carry, either in investigations (allegedly) or in their roles as close protection officers (what your Secret Service does);

v) Specialist Operations - some of the more arcane squads allegedly are armed, in some cases heavily so. This includes our version of your SWAT teams, snipers etc.

vi) Aviation Security Units - guard airport premises.

Its estimated that one in twenty officers is armed all the time when they are on duty; this proportion increases when you add the ex-members of those units and former services personnel (of which there are quite a lot), and the rumour is that the Met at least has the firearms to arm all 30,000 odd officers, so they could concievably increase the numbers of armed officers quite quickly - the latest figure I've heard is one in ten.

Historically, at the very start of the modern Police in this country the Old Bill were armed with pistols and cutlasses, that fell out of favour and by the turn of the century there were so few armed Police who were able to respond to incidents that they were forced to borrow firearms from members of the public when chasing two cop-killers. The situation fluctuated given the two world wars and austerity up until the situation was radically changed; ironically enough with the loss of the death penalty.

Police had always been killed by criminals in the line of duty, prior to 1966 they had (almost) always suffered the extreme punishment for it, even in circumstances that modern, less enlightened, society frowns upon (Derek Bentley was hanged for the murder of Pc Sidney Miles for saying "Let him have it, Chris" to a gunman). The abolition of the death penalty in 1965 however meant that when the next main incident occured - the shooting of three unarmed Policemen by criminals in Fulham, London in 1966 - the Government could not rely that the guilty would be executed (despite the massive public outcry for its restoration, popular support for the death penalty which remains to this day) and so, fearing a political backlash, they began to draw up the Firearms Act 1968, which remains the starting point for all firearms legislation in England and Wales.

It also sets a precedent in that successive governments, of whatever hue, usually respond to incidents by legislation "demonstrating" that they are not soft on crime - Hungerford and Dunblane were shortly followed by new legislation which further "tightened" firearms control. The other demand, which almost always follows incidents of this kind (as well as terrorist attacks, child-murders etc) for the restoration of the death penalty always falls on deaf ears, despite (as mentioned above) massive public support, as every main party and most of the smaller ones oppose it in principle.

The number of armed Police slowly rises in the intervening period from then to now, what with armed criminality, the increasing drug problem and several phases of terrorist attacks, the most lethal being that of the IRA. Throughout, however, the bulk of the Police in this country have been unarmed officers; ironically enough because there are so many of us it is almost always we that come into contact with the various armed criminals first (I'm unaware of any death of an armed officer in England and Wales in recent times) with the attendant risks involved.

Despite this the majority of my colleagues at least (and, if polls are to be believed, in the country as a whole), do not support arming all police with firearms. It would be a radical change that would effect each and every part of an officers job, especially in the way we deal with criminals (British Police are a lot more tactile than yours; where I see your officers pointing their gun at criminals and subduing them that way, we are more likely to (if theyre unarmed) to bundle them over). That said, there is far more demand for less-lethal weapons, like the tazer, to be issued to all-ranks; our CS does not work on everyone (it doesnt work on me) and the ASP baton is not as threatening as it should be (it doesnt deter people from having a go). In addition, the public would not expect it and more than a few people would be shot early on in circumstances where they would not be shot before; I can think of at least three people I would have shot who I was able to restrain without a firearm, even though I was in fear enough to use one if I had had it. Plus, as Iain notes, there is a whole issue over hypocriticalness where we would state that we had to be armed wheras society couldnt - the theory that the Bobby is merely a citizen in uniform, paid to observe full-time the responsibilities that are incumbent on all citizens, would be finally killed off (if it isnt already)

Of course, as is usual, the media comments are rubbish; there would be no "escalation" if all Police were armed because criminals (amazingly) do not play by the rules.
 
Stand_Watie - your point about 100 stabbings vs 10 shootings is well taken.

Agricola - interesting read. Massive public support for the death penalty doesn't make them right. Not really opposed to it in principle, the practice is different. With regard to Bentley - that is a very complicated case. Bentley was pardoned in the end. Someone was going to hang for killing the officer and Craig was under 18. Therein lies a problem, someone has to be seen to hang. Those convicted of killing Blakelock would have hung, and yet they are now acquitted (of that murder at least)

Also, if there is an problem with an unarmed populace and an armed police, is there not also a problem with Stevens' call for the death penalty for cop killers?

Also more generally - what is the take on this statistic that apparently comes from the FBI that says that 25% of US police officers shot are shot with their own weapon? Seems a bit bizarre but has been whipped out here in the last couple of days.
 
Iain,

Bentley was pardoned IRRC for two reasons - that the judge was "hostile" to him (though when almost every witness to the case is dead), and that the judge misdirected the jury on a point of law - though given as the rest (it was accepted that he was there and was acting with the other boy) was enough to convict him even now of murder, the point is somewhat moot.

I disagree with Lord Stevens about copkillers being given the death penalty and noone else; IMHO most murders should attract the ultimate penalty - varying sentence based on individual cases just results in idiocy of the kind meted out to the Lockerbie bomber, who appealed sentence because he got the maximum of 30 years. For killing more than 300 people.

As for the Keith Blakelock murder, one could make the argument that if the death penalty was in at least one person - Winston Silcott - would have been in no position to take part in the riot anyway because he would have been kept in custody for the murder of Anthony Smith, instead of being bailed out (as he was).
 
Its always interesting, telling, and sad that debates about protecting the police are held to a standard that is more important/more legit than the Rights of the citizen. Although I have problems with the state vs Federal Govt on the issue of National CC laws.....its telling that they get it before "we the people" do.

just more tail wagging the dog:rolleyes:
 
xd9fan - I was partly driving at that point and Agricola mentions it too.

Ag - I've started a discussion on the generalities of capital punishment over on APS. Appreciate your input.

Stand_Watie - I'll freely admit that I think (given today to reflect) that you're right.
 
Iain said:
..

Stand_Watie - I'll freely admit that I think (given today to reflect) that you're right.

An open mind is a rarity on a message board, Ian. I can only recall a few instances where I've seen that. I'm going to bookmark this post and try to convince my 9 year old that I'm not always wrong:D
 
enfield303 said:
I have never understood why the Brits insist on unarmed cops. They are in the business of taking care of CRIMINALS. Criminals usually don't go quietly, they tend to put up a bit of a fuss. I'm thinkin' Y'all might want to give your police officers the means to DEFEND themselves!!!


For a long time, the British police simply didn't need to be armed. For all the joking about "Stop! Or I'll say Stop again!", it worked.

When the modern police force was founded, I believe there was a deliberate decision to have a routinely armed force, (which was considered to be the sort of thing the French and other dastardly foreigners used to keep their people in check, and had no place in a freedom-loving country like Britain).

And given all the posts typically made on THR complaining about SWAT teams acting like the military, trigger-happy cops firing dozens of shots and only hitting houses, and the general "anything the cops are allowed to own, we should be allowed", I'm surprised more people don't appreciate why a mostly-disarmed people would not want their police to be armed (and why suggestions that they should be tend to attract "police state" comments).


Now, I disagree with those who think that arming the police will just cause the criminals to use more guns (which implies we are already over-run with criminals with easy access to guns and a willingness to kill, who should be appeased rather than risk upsetting).

And I disagree with those that say the criminals would just take the cops' guns and use them against them (because that would negate most pro-RKB arguments).

But, given the Menezes case, am am slightly concerned that more armed police would lead to more unjustified shootings. Although maybe the typical "Bobby on the beat" would be less prone to that sort of thing than a specialist firearms unit...


Overall, my general response would be that given the typical bobby on the beat (rather than e.g. a specially assembled team going on a drug raid) will generally be confronting exactly the same criminals as the general public will, then unless the streets are so dangerous that everyone needs to be allowed guns, then the bobbies donts either. (And if the police do need guns... well, you can guess where this is leading ;) )


Incidently, in the week or so since this tragic case happened, I have heard two people (one on a BBC phone-in, one in a newspaper letters page) arguing that this shows the public need to be allowed arms ("which in America has resulted in a reduction in violent crime"). So maybe all the past comments about the UK being beyond hope were premature...
 
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