British gun control at work

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jimpeel

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This simply shows the fact that those disposed to aberrant behavior will move to other means to perpetrate their crimes. This guy is no different; but the powers-that-be can't see it.

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/new...8220002394837&dt=20040821182200&w=RTR&coview=

Police fear serial hammer killer stalks London

LONDON, Aug 21 (Reuters) - Police are investigating whether a serial hammer killer is targeting women in London after a French woman was bludgeoned to death in circumstances similar to other attacks.

Emilie Delagrange, 22, was found with a serious head injury lying near a cricket pitch in the southwest suburb of Twickenham on Thursday night. She died shortly afterwards.

The attack bore similarities to three other assaults in the neighbourhood in the past two years, all of which left female victims with severe head injuries.

A London police spokeswoman said the Delagrange investigation was being helped by officers from a team that probed the nearby murder of student Marsha McDonnell last year.

"The possibility that this was linked to other attacks is an important line of inquiry, but we are keeping an open mind," she said.

McDonnell, a 19-year-old gap-year student, was bludgeoned to death in the early hours of Feb. 4, 2003, close to her home after taking the bus back from a night out with friends.

A 17-year-old boy who was arrested last March in connection with the murder is being held in a secure mental unit, but has not been charged.

Delagrange, who had been living and working in Twickenham, was killed as she walked home, also having taken the bus back from a night out.

Police said other similar attacks have taken place on women in the area, although not all victims were killed.

A month before the McDonnell murder, a 17-year-old girl survived serious head injuries from an attack in nearby Strawberry Hill, and in April this year a 34-year-old woman was attacked on Twickenham Green, where Delagrange died.

A few weeks after McDonnell was killed, a male 18-year-old was attacked nearby but escaped unhurt. He said the weapon he was struck with was a "hammer-like" tool.

Detectives are still trying to trace Delagrange's mustard coloured handbag and mobile phone.

© Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved.
 
Hope this wasn't the dreaded ''ball peen'' hammer ..... tho heaven knows, even the std claw is lethal! Should be banned - of course.

Wonder when the ''screwdriver'' serial killer will strike again!!:p

Damn ... they are screwed up - and i was spawned there.:rolleyes: :(
 
I think we are long over due for some reasonable hammer control laws. Think of the children!!
 
It's sickening to realize that this murderer could likely have been stopped if these victims were carrying a handgun since, from the news reports, it's apparent that not all of the victims were immediately disabled by the attacker.

These Londoners were victimized twice, once by the attacker and then by thier Laws.
 
When I lived in Calgary, Alberta, Canada just a few years ago, though the repressive gun laws had disarmed many folks, the Alberta crime rate was higher than before...the bad guys simply sliced and diced, not expecting their victims to have guns. Disemboweling was a favorite...!:uhoh:
 
agricola

... and your point with all of the links would be ...

You want to see links to crimes that were stopped or prevented by the presence of a firearm?

The fact remains that your country has a history of murders that involve some of the most inventive methods. You, in fact, have whole museums dedicated to the criminal mind and methodology. We don't have those here.

This guy has merely moved on to the next available weapon to perpetrate his crimes and the gun control laws had no effect on his aberrant behavior.
 
This is a duplicate.

jimpeel,

what are you talking about when you say "your country has a history of murders that involve some of the most inventive methods"? Ag's point with his links was clear.

Can I ask what is it about the UK that pushes so many buttons on here? There seems to be an obsessive need on the part of some members to 'prove' that the UK is a very Sodom or Gomorrah post-Hungerford/Dunblane.
 
Allright, ST Johns

The reason for the UK as a "button" is that American law is based upon English law (Blackstones law). And we see the UK as a horrible experiment in "political correctness uber alles".
With Tony Martin and others being prosecuted for self defense and your extremley biased media, Americans like Gwynneth Paltrow and Madonna moving there and telling us (through their phalanx of armed security)
how much better it is over there...well we see all that and say it must not happen here.

But I know that I am really happy with your Gov't for assisting with the war on terror and despite your countries problems (which are happening here as well) that the UK is still a wonderfull country.
Cheerio,pip pip!
Carry on!
 
I don't think our media is any worse than yours. And if Madonna wants to live here and pontificate about how nice life is here it's up to her. She doesn't live in the 'real world' anyway, whether in London or L.A.

I don't know about the political correctness. We hear the same sorts of stories about you guys. I always try to bear in mind that the stories we hear over here at times (like the 1,000lb man) represent nothing near the reality of the everyday American. Same goes, I have yet to be mugged, raped, serial killed or slapped with a dead fish.

And again, Martin is a very poor example of self-defense. There have been several cases recently where people have been acquitted - and this is because we do take things to trial to establish how things happened, merely saying 'he came at with a knife' doesn't mean he did. If you take the Martin case, which has been hashed and rehashed here, at the straight facts he shot a person in the back - would you be allowed to call that self-defense in SF (as I note you are from there)?

Do you know anyone who says 'Yeehaw'? because I don't know anyone who says 'pip pip'. I do know someone who says 'cheerio' but he's quite weird.

Seriously, I am curious. These threads do pop up on a regular basis, they vastly outweigh threads about France.
 
Just as a side note, there recently was a man who shot a robber in the back with the robber's own gun. Neighbors hailed him as a hero, while California's use-of-force laws do not permit shooting someone in the back, yet the police released him on bail. It has yet to be seen whether or not he will be charged with anything.


A Bullet Too Many?

Vigilante hailed as hero in jail
 
gunsmith,

i) St Johns is being too kind about Martin - it wasnt self defence, the boy was in the act of climbing through a window when he was shot in the back (the idea that Martin fired blindly when dazzled by a torch comes from Martins failed defence, and was disproved by forensic evidence);

ii) neither Gwyneth Paltrow or Madonna have armed security guards during their stay in the UK.
 
Some of you guys over the pond fail to realize that we know he shot the intruder in the back. Some of us happen to think that shooting anyone who breaks into your home at night is justified, front or back. If you don't want to get shot, stay in your own damn house.
 
agricola and St Johns

AG:
which museums would they be?
St. J:
what are you talking about when you say "your country has a history of murders that involve some of the most inventive methods"?
Try this one. http://www.met.police.uk/history/crime_museum.htm

Follow the links at the bottom for some of the more innovative murders.

There was even a radio series starring Orson Welles called "The Black Museum" http://www.old-time.com/otrlogs2/blkmus.html

Then go out and rent "10 Rillington Place" http://imdb.com/title/tt0066730/ It's available in UK format. Maybe you have heard of Mr. John Christie. He kept a lovely garden.
 
Allright, ST Johns

Notice I'm using English not American in my salutation?


STV, that guy you mentioned who grabbed the gun out of the hand of the robber who was leaving his house with the guys possesion will not be charged,even the liberal prosecuter knew he would be let go during trial and didn't bother.

ST JOHN.
Here in California you can shoot a person that has broken into your house,you can shoot him in the back as he is running away if you feel like it.

Even in NY which is a nightmare to gun owners you can shoot anyone who has broken into your house-as long as your gun is registered.

I've said yeehaw at times,not very often I must admit,I'm a native NY'er and yeehaw is more of a Southern thing. My girlfriend says "hey ya'll and yeehaw" all the time because she sings along with Gretchen Wilson when her video comes on the country music channel the song is "Redneck Women" ...
I was talking to some tourist from Manchester and they told me that the British Troops had captured a Pakistani guy (who was raised in Manchester) in Iraq and he had been fighting with Saddams Republican Guard- as he sat captured he was laughing at at the British Troops because as a POW he would be returned to Manchester where he was still on the Dole and would be getting health care to take care of his minor wounds and then collect more dole.
If that aint political correctness gone awry I don't know what is,that would never fly in the peoples republic of Berkeley and they're off they're rocker over there...er..nutters- as you blokes say;)
 
Uh-huh jim...

And then perhaps we could look at the history of crime in the US. Pots and kettles.

Gunsmith...

I understand what you are saying. I guess my response should be that self-defense and shooting a burglar can be quite different things. Martin shot a burglar, other British citizens who shot a burglar in self-defence have been acquitted. There is obviously a 'cultural' difference here, but I don't see defense of property as self-defense. Obviously a burglary can turn into a SD situation and then it would be no holds barred.

It's purely a difference, one shared by the vast majority of people I know over here. I don't think it makes us stupid, nor do I think that your approach is wrong either. Just different.

But, Martin is a poor example of self-defence for the reasons Ag points out, maybe he would have been acquitted in SF, NY or TX but would it have been for the reasons he gave? If it is legal to shoot a burglar fine, but over here it isn't. It is legal to shoot someone in self-defence which is what Martin claimed he was doing, and lying to the police and the courts is bad news everywhere I believe.
 
Jimpeel,

For a start, the "Black Museum" and the Met Crime Museum are in fact one and the same, and (something which you convieniently left out) it is not open to the public. Even then, its part of a museum which represents the history of the Met (replete as it should be for the worlds first Police force), not just criminality - something which is parallelled by many US police museums. All of which is hardly have whole museums dedicated to the criminal mind and methodology is it?

Secondly, the fact that we have serial killers like Christie means precisely nothing in this debate (which is being kind to you, since your country has far more, and far more notorious killers).
 
agricola

and (something which you convieniently left out) it is not open to the public.
Since I was unaware that it is not open to the public, I could not have omitted that fact as a matter of "convenience". Regardless, it is a museum that is dedicated to criminal behavior (or behaviour, as it were) which is in keeping with my statement which read:
You, in fact, have whole museums dedicated to the criminal mind and methodology.
Whether they are open to the public, convenient or not, is of no relevance for the purposes of this discussion. They exist.

From the link I provided:
The Crime Museum at Scotland Yard is the oldest museum in the world put together purely for recording crime.
In 1877 the name 'Black Museum' was coined, when on the 8th April a reporter from 'The Observer' newspaper used the term after being refused a visit by Inspector Neame. However the museum is now referred to as the Crime Museum.
There was no attempt at obfuscation on my part. The information was there for all to see by merely clicking on the link and reading the content.

How about Madamme Tossauds?
http://www.aboutbritain.com/MadameTussauds.htm

Galleries of Justice?
http://www.aboutbritain.com/GalleriesOfJustice.htm

The House of Correction Museum of Police and Prisons?
http://www.aboutbritain.com/RiponPrisonMuseum.htm

Tolbooth?
http://www.aboutbritain.com/TolboothMuseumAberdeen.htm

They are open to the public. (Wouldn't want to leave that part out, now, would I?)
 
jimpeel,

it says, in big red letters right at the top of one of your links:

The Crime Museum is a Private Museum - it is NOT open to the general public. It is open to police Officers by prior appointment.

secondly, anyone who has visited Madame Tussauds would know that it is not one of those whole museums dedicated to the criminal mind and methodology.

Neither, for that matter, are Tolbooth, the Galleries of Justice and Ripon gaols - they are recreated prisons and museums which feature exhibits on crime and punishment as the links describe, not "dedicated to the criminal mind and methodology".

Finally, I refer you to your original thread:

We don't have those here.

http://www.nps.gov/alcatraz/
 
agricola

Are you desperate, or what? Alcartaz Island is NOT a museum. It is a designated federal recreation area operated by the National Park Service. I should note that that fact is emblazoned at the top of the link you provided in LARGE FRIENDLY LETTERS.

And why do you dwell on the Crime Museum being non-public? Have you no answers other than obfuscation and diversion.

Nothing you have said so far has detracted from the FACT that all of your gun control laws have merely sent criminals, such as the subject of this thread, to use other means to perpetrate their crimes while disarming noone but the law-abiding. Are you for cricket bat control? Hammer control? Lord knows you already have knife control. What is next in your superb "free" society?
 
jimpeel,

lol, i love the way some people here refuse to accept their mistakes, and when presented with a direct parallel (which Alcatraz is to the links you posted), rubbish it (while simultaneously ignoring their own mistakes) and then retreat into "well you dont have RKBA anyway!!!!!"

at least have the decency to admit you are wrong before trying to start that whole debate off. By the way, have you ever been to any of those museums?
 
How did we get from
Police fear serial hammer killer stalks London
to museums? :confused:

It started off as a great example of the need to be able to defend yourself. 19 and 22 year-old women were bludgeoned while out at night alone. A 17-year-old suspect is in custody. Seems pretty simple and age-old to me....... antagonist chooses those weaker to do whatever nasty he has in mind because the possibility of resistance is minimized. He wasn't going around attacking males who were larger or women in groups, was he?

If bad boy had an inkling that he might SUFFER for his actions (get shot, for instance), he might stick to torturing puppies or whatever perverted pastime he thought he could get away with.
 
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