Broomhandle Mauser Barrel re-lining

[Red October]

Earlier this month, I sent my C96 Mauser barrel to Redman's for re-lining (http://www.redmansrifling.com/mauser.htm).
I just received it back today (earlier than estimated).

Had I not known what the bore was like previously, I would not have believed any work had occurred. Other than brand new rifling, there is no indication that anything was done (no tool marks, etc).

Before, it key-holed badly; now it shoots straight.

Anyone needing this done on their Mauser should seriously consider Randall Redman. For quality and price, I don't think you could find a better value.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Thanks for the heads-up!

My brother's C96 has what can be only described as a sewer pipe.

 

[Red October]

Sounds like mine originally.
Mine would key-hole a perfect silhouette of the slug at 15 feet!

Makes nice round holes now.

 

[tark]

Thanks for the heads up. My shooter Broomhandle has passed the four thousand round mark since I have bought it. I put new Wolff springs in it and shoot mostly Tokarev ammo, and the bore was a bit rough when I got it. It is a lot rougher now and I am losing accuracy.

Now I know where to go. Thanks again.

 

[Red October]

Tark, be careful with Tokarev ammo. Although the same case dimensions, the military loads are typically too hot for old Mausers.

 

[joem1945]

You could always reload. It's easy to reload and a bit cheaper than store bought ammo.

 

[tark]

Red October, that is a myth and I don't know how it got started. When the Russians copied the Mauser round way back when, they copied it exactly. There was no reason to load it hotter. Look at any old "Cartridges of the world" book and you will find the Mauser factory round listed at 1410 FPS. The 7.62X25 is listed at 1390. These were the actual velocities the military rounds were loaded to at that time. The Mauser has a one inch longer barrel, which explains the difference.

Now before we go any further, we need to be on the same page as to the meaning of the word 'Hotter"

When I use the word, I am referring to higher pressure. The Mauser and the Tok rounds are loaded to the same pressure, HOWEVER: most of the Tokarev rounds are loaded to a higher velocity. The Winchester white box 7.62X25 ammo pushes that 85 grain bullet to 1645 FPS. Advances in modern powders can work wonders. Modern 30-06 loads push a 150 grain bullet to well over 3000 FPS. That is quite a bit faster than forty years ago, but the pressures haven't gone up; the propellants have gotten better.

The Winchester 7.62X25 is loaded (in the Czech Republic, by the way) to around 35,000 PSI, same as 9x19. Broomhandles never had any problems handling that round. As a matter of fact, Broomhandles never had any trouble handling the hottest 9MM of them all, the 9X25 Mauser round. 128 gr bullet at 1360.

My broomhandle has extra strength Wolff springs in it and, as I have mentioned, digested over 4000 7.62X25 and 7.63 Mauser rounds. The vast majority of those were Polish surplus Tokarev rounds.

The myth of Tokarev ammo being loaded hotter has been repeated over and over, through the years, so many times, that it is now accepted as fact. There is no real evidence to support it.

But I must mention this, in the strongest possible terms; Get your pistol checked out by a gunsmith first, to determine if it is safe to fire at all. Secondly: PUT NEW SPRINGS IN IT!!! They are cheap. Wolff (and others) have them and they are the cheapest insurance you will ever pay.

 

[Jim K]

And of course the Russians issued Mausers and Tokarevs at the same time, with the same ammo, but then what did they know? They didn't have the Internet to tell them they couldn't do that.

Jim

 

[jonnyc]

Ah, Tark, words of wisdom from the wilds of the internet. I've been trying to fight that myth for the past 30 years, but it is well entrenched. Also the one that the Russians loaded different ammo for pistols and SMGs. All the same stuff!
I had my Bolo relined by "The Broom Closet" in Florida. Very happy with the price, work, and speed.

 

[barnbwt]

I actually found and shot WWI Mauser ammo in my broom, and it was markedly sharper than Bulgy Tokarev ammo (well, for those four shots out of 20 it was ). Not sure where the myth of 7.63x25 being a blackpowder round or whatever came from, but it's the same stuff as tok (or close enough that either design can handle it easily). Gives one a lot more due respect to the power of the Borchardt and Mauser, don't it? They were like a 357 Magnum come from out of nowhere, compared to the rounds preceding them.

TCB

 

[Red October]

Tark, thank you. I stand corrected.
I checked Cartridges of the World and the Lyman reloading manual. The Lyman actually lists these together. I was certain that I had seen something cautionary in one of the manuals regarding these two cartridges, but I can't seem to find that now. Apparently, I must have bought-in to the very prevalent internet myth (and I should have known better). Sorry for perpetuating it.

At any rate, if you need your Mauser re-lined, check out Redman's. For $215 (which includes return shipping), I don't think you can beat the quality. I would use him again without a second thought.

 

[Leth]

Thanks for the heads-up; I'm very tempted to have Redman resolve my keyholing C96. Cheers!

 

[tark]

I have seen people repeat that myth everywhere I go. I have even read it in The American Rifleman. . Every time I confront the person repeating it I get the same answer. "I read that in the..." Mike Venturino even wrote that his PPSH41 won't function with Mauser ammo because it is "loaded weaker" Must be another reason, Mike. Mine works just fine with Mauser ammo. So does my semi-auto PPs43

The trouble begins when somebody makes an assertion without getting all the facts. It is printed somewhere and others read it, The snowball effect begins . It quickly goes from "It probably true" to "It must be true, I've read it for years." Pretty soon it is accepted as fact. Myths are compounded by the belief that Gun Writers are experts and they wouldn't write it if it weren't true.

It ain't always so!

 

[.455_Hunter]

The main thing is to keep the Czech 7.62mm CZ-52 & Subgun stuff out of the C96. My brother cracked his bolt stop using the stuff on the stripper clips.

 

[il.bill]

Earlier this month, I sent my C96 Mauser barrel to Redman's for re-lining (http://www.redmansrifling.com/mauser.htm).
I just received it back today (earlier than estimated).

Had I not known what the bore was like previously, I would not have believed any work had occurred. Other than brand new rifling, there is no indication that anything was done (no tool marks, etc).

...

But ... I don't see any pictures!?

 

[tark]

455 Hunter, I must respectfully ask you to read Jonnyc in post #9. There is no such thing as sub-gun loaded ammo in 7.62X25 . I assume he knows what he is talking about when I cook at his credentials at the bottom of his post. Another myth is the "Hot" loaded Czech ammo. The Czech's were part of the warsaw pact and the Russians would not have let them load ammo that would be dangerous in other weapons. They may have had a superior powder that achieved a higher velocity, but it was at the standard pressure level. The Czech's are loading Tokarev ammo today for Winchester, to standard pressure levels, that far exceed the original ballistics.

Whenever people see a round listed with higher velocity than normal they tend to automatically think it is loaded to higher pressure. Not always true. Take a 44 Mag, for example. You can load a 180 grain bulled with bullseye, or you can load it with 2400. You can load both up to max pressure. Which powder gives the higher velocity? The 2400 of course, because of a superior burning rate and a flatter pressure curve.

If you have seen a Broomhandle with a cracked bolt stop you are probably the first person in history to do so. I have never heard of one cracking, they are made of hardened and tempered steel, and they are quite beefy in their construction. The barrel extension they are mounted in is the weaker link.

Whatever happened, I will bet good money that the gun was being fired with old, weak springs in it.

 

[barnbwt]

As someone who knows very little about Broomhandles, I am comfortable agreeing that it is likely +100 year old springs that lived through three revolutions across two continents, or the questionable provenance of parts that made the same journey which could result in a cracked block (lots of non-Mauser made components over the years given the age and number of user nations, and even within Mauser you have to expect a certain amount of variance over such a long span during such early development/understanding of production processes.) As hard as the steels are in these, and given the non-existent science of fracture mechanics at the time, wimpy springs could be far more detrimental than we are used to for modern guns that are often in a nearly normalized state (same as barrels)

I always thought it was odd just how powerful the gun was compared to what preceded it, but I guess that was also the case for rifles; once smokeless powder came along, all the nations took turns to see how blue they could turn soldiers' shoulders. From what I understand, officers had used pistols since Napoleon's days to direct fire and troop movements (like a laser pointer? ) on the battlefield, so perhaps that is why such a flat shooting round was desirable (would also explain the 1000yard sights, which considering how few were ever fielded together, can't even be justified as a volley fire feature)

TCB

 

[Jim Watson]

Remington got 1380 fps for .30 Mauser in 1939.
Winchester claimed 1397.
Phil Sharpe said you could match that with 5 grains of Bullseye, 29,000 psi at Hercules.

 

[WardenWolf]

One thing I will caution you is that Russian bullets are typically slightly oversized compared to Western ones. Western .30 caliber bullets (with the exception of the British .303) are .308 caliber. Russian ones are .311. The German round was .308. While generally speaking .003 won't make much of a difference, it WILL increase chamber pressure slightly as well as accelerate wear on the barrel.

 

[kBob]

except some of the Mosin Nagant guys bought shell shrinkers to use 7.62x25 in their 91/30s an got poor accuracy and when they miked the 7.62 warsaw pact 7.62P they found the bullets to be .308 rather than .310 to .312 as their rifle bores.......

Here on THR.

-kBob

 

[barnbwt]

.311 is Mosin/AK diameter, the x25 actually is in .308 range (tolerances, though)

TCB

 

[tark]

I was quite shocked when I pulled apart some of the Polish ammo (7.62X25) that was so plentiful and cheap a few years back.

I pulled ten rounds and checked the powder charges, bullet weights and bullet diameters for consistency. The powder charges were consistent to within a tenth of a grain, at 9.8 grains of what looked like extruded rifle powder, It resembled 4227 and whatever it was it filled the case. The bullets all miked out at .308 and they all weighed within a tenth of a grain at 86 grains.

I was shocked at such consistency from Warsaw Pact ammo! The stuff shot beautifully in both my Tokarev's and my shooter Broomhandle. I wish I still had some. I was billed as corrosive, but I popped a primer on a bare steel plate and never got any rust!

 

[jonnyc]

Not sure why you got no rust, but the Polish milsurp is 100% corrosive.

 

[tark]

JonnyC , no one was more surprised than I was! The steel plate was 1018, plain low carbon steel. I buffed it on a wire wheel to make sure I had exposed steel and I popped a primer with the muzzle of the gun one inch from the plate. I got a greyish smudge, which did not rust!

In retrospect, I wonder if perhaps there might have been something on my wire wheel that protected the plate. I KNOW that stuff had to be corrosive. It was loaded in the fifties and sixties, no way is wasn't corrosive. I cleaned the gun accordingly.

I never had a single misfire or hangfire with that ammo. Wish I had more.

 

[Wil Terry]

Actually, the original 30MAUSER ammunion that I measured showed a bullet O.D. of .3060" dead on the money. The original specs I saw showed this to be right. BUT shucks, my pistol was a new commercial 9MM Red line that I had to make a fortune upon. Bought it for $39.00 from the Moores store in Bowling Green OH and sold it for $45.00 to some yahoo named Edwards from BGSU.
To back up: I have quite a supply of 30MAUSER, 7.63Mauser, and one other for use in the CZ52 that says in BIG letters, " NOT FOR USE IN ANY C96 PISTOL OR ANY BROOMHANDLE MAUSER OF ANY AGE, VINTAGE OR MANUAFACTURE."
A pal shot some in his CZ 52 pistol and it was SCREAMING hot I kid you not ! I got a pile of this ammo in a trade and some of the boxes had 7.65LUGER in them. They'll run my P210-5 7.65 to a farethewell. No fooling.
And so it goes...