Bucketfull o'squibs explained: Lee autodisk problem discovered

[Elkins45]

So I loaded up a few hundred rounds of 38 special with a 158 grain SWC and 5.0 grains of Unique using the Lee Pro 1000 and a Lee AutoDisk powder measure. When I load on a progressive I randomly pull a charged round and weigh the powder to see that it hasn't slipped out of adjustment. I didn't detect anything out of the ordinary when sampling the changes on these rounds, and 5.0 grains of Unique is a fairly bulky charge.

I loaded hundreds of rounds and didn't detect any problems...until I grabbed a handful and took them to the range. In a box of 50 I had two complete squibs, a couple that barely blooped out of the barrel and a handful that were noticeably more stout than the 'normal' round. Obviously I had some serious powder dispensing issues.

I think today I discovered the problem: I have two AutoDisk measures. The metal drop tube in one of them (which I figure was the one I used to load these rounds) was severely rusted and pitted. The inside bore of the metal tube is rougher and more pitted than any milsurp bore I've ever seen. I scrubbed it with a bore brush and Hoppes and the amount of rust I shoved out was almost unfathomable. I have no idea how it got so severely corroded: none of my other reloading stuff shows any sort of rust at all. This thing looks like it was swabbed with corrosive primer residue and left in the jungle for a month!

Best I can tell, the roughness of the drop tube combined with the large flakes of Unique probably caused some charges to bridge in the tube, resulting in some severely undercharged rounds (the squibs) and some overcharged ones that followed. I'm amazed that my sampling didn't catch this, but I guess 2 of 50 can be missed pretty easily, statistically speaking.

I'm going to get either a replacement tube or just get a new measure, but as an experiment I coated the bore of the tube with Johnson's Paste Wax to see if I could reduce friction, and I'm going to relegate this measure to ball powders only because they should be almost impossible to bridge.

Moral of the story: occasionally check out the guts of your powder dispensing apparatus just to see if everything is OK. It might be corroded, or spiders might have built a web, or...

I don't relish the thought of pulling down a coffee can full of 38's.

 

[rcmodel]

The moral of the story for me would be the same one I have used successfully for 50 years without a squib or a damaged gun.

I Do Not put a bullet in a case until After I have visually inspected the powder level in the case.

Sure it's slow.
But it is foolproof safe too!

rc

 

[BigBore45]

that is a sad thing indeed. thanks for sharing. On the bright side i see a nice .357 mag in your future, i hear they pull bullets easy

 

[Elkins45]

The moral of the story for me would be the same one I have used successfully for 50 years without a squib or a damaged gun.

I Do Not put a bullet in a case until After I have visually inspected the powder level in the case.

Sure it's slow.
But it is foolproof safe too!

rc

Do you load on progressive equipment?

 

[Mad Chemist]

I load on a Loadmaster with an RCBS bullet feed die and I still follow RCs advice. I have two bright workbench lights adjusted to illuminate the shellplate area and I sit high enough to see inside the case mouth. I eyeball each case before it hits the bullet feed die. I have never had a squib from my loads(knocking on wood).

 

[gamestalker]

Not to berate your reloading process or skill level, so please don't be offended.

But in the short 30 yr. history of reloading, I have yet to experience a single squib or over charge. If there is any one single fail safe in this hobby of reloading, it would have to be verifying every single charge prior to seating the bullet, an absolute must.

I can't count the number of times I've heard a reloader state that if you reload long enough, you'll eventually experience one. My response, if you've ever experienced either of those issues, you need to reevaluate your process.

A bright light and a few seconds to inspect the loading tray, is all it takes to spot a problem. If that's not worth one's time and trouble, than they can expect to eventually experience the expense of an emergency room visit, and that of replacing a firearm.

BTW, 2 rounds out of 50 is a 2% failure rate, which is very high.

GS

 

[chris in va]

I Do Not put a bullet in a case until After I have visually inspected the powder level in the case.

Same here. I've caught two double charges after thousands reloaded by inspecting every case.

 

[Reinz]

Good info. Thanks!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

The problem is he's using a pro1000 and I do to.

You can't see the powder in the longer cases. You have to keep the measure in really good working order.

My Lee Pro Auto Disc measure get more attention that all my other measures put together because of this.

 

[Elkins45]

Not to berate your reloading process or skill level, so please don't be offended.

But in the short 30 yr. history of reloading, I have yet to experience a single squib or over charge. If there is any one single fail safe in this hobby of reloading, it would have to be verifying every single charge prior to seating the bullet, an absolute must.

I can't count the number of times I've heard a reloader state that if you reload long enough, you'll eventually experience one. My response, if you've ever experienced either of those issues, you need to reevaluate your process.

A bright light and a few seconds to inspect the loading tray, is all it takes to spot a problem. If that's not worth one's time and trouble, than they can expect to eventually experience the expense of an emergency room visit, and that of replacing a firearm.

BTW, 2 rounds out of 50 is a 2% failure rate, which is very high.

GS

I'm not offended, but you should know that you can't see down into the case on a Pro 1000, and there is no loading tray to examine on a progressive press.

To visually check the charge on this press would require physically removing each round from the shellplate, negating any advantage of using a progressive reloader.

 

[TfflHndn]

I agree with the cautionary advice given by RC and others. Yesterday, I loaded up some .44 mag with 9.0 and 9.5 grains of green dot under a 240 plated flat point. Hand dipped the loads into the pan to measure each load (a new load, so I was trying to be accurate with the loads). Despite having each case primer-up in one case, dip/load and then placed into another tray, I still looked at each one with a light before seating. And I found one that looked too full. Poured it out thinking maybe there was some debris in the case. Nope. I had somehow loaded 14.5 grains of powder in it instead of 9.5. I have no idea how it happened, and would have sworn that checking the cases after hand-weighing each one was unnecessary, but I'm glad I did. It's just not worth overlooking your safety precautions to save a few seconds.

 

[Walkalong]

Do you load on progressive equipment?

I do, an LNL, and I see every charge I seat a bullet over. That was one of the appeals to the Projector I started with, and now the LNL, that the case is up front where you can see in it easily.

There is no better way than to see every charge. Lot's of folks are successful with powder check dies etc, but I do it the old fashioned way, I see every charge.

 

[hAkron]

This is one of the disadvantages of a 3 hole press, there isn't a spare station for a powder cop or lockout die. Maybe not as good as a visual inspection, but they have the advantage of being able to probe the dark depths of long cases, and in the case if the lockout die, or the dies with audible indicators, they avoid the possibility of a momentary distraction causing you to fail to inspect a case, which is what I imagine is a big cause of squibs on progressive presses - something jams, you clear the jam but possibly everything moved ahead without completing a cycle.

 

[rfwobbly]

There is no better way than to see every charge. Lot's of folks are successful with powder check dies etc, but I do it the old fashioned way, I see every charge.

Here, here !!

To which I can only add... there is more to choosing a progressive press than "inexpensive" and "fast".

 

[FROGO207]

I sure could process ammo MUCH faster with a progressive but my SS and turret presses allow me to be up close and personal with the individual round. IMHO control of the process and being able to actually eyeball each round and the powder level are a big safety factor that can't be stressed enough. Glad the OP had a learning experience without a kaboom! So far the only problems with a finished round I have discovered were high primers in a early batch of 45 Colt ammo and some collapsed shoulders in bottle necked rifle rounds when I tried to cut corners to save time and not chamfer the inside of the case mouths when I was starting out as well. No one is perfect and inspecting EVERY step in the process of loading each and every round needs to be accomplished I believe. YMMV

 

[gamestalker]

I'm sorry, but there's just no way I would consider sacrificing such an important fail safe, for the sake of speed. You gotta do, what you gotta, that's what makes us all individuals.

What's more, IMO, I consider that a terrible design flaw by the manufacturer. I mean, the single most important step in the process and their is no way to inspect the charge prior to seating? No thank you.

GS

 

[X-Rap]

I'm no fan of Lee equipment but there are thousands of Blue, Red, and Green Progressive Presses out there and many of them don't have powder cops and there are plenty of situations in which it is difficult if not impossible to see into each case as it passes and IMO removal from the shell base will disrupt and confuse and drag down the process to that of a SS press.
I can attest to the fact that things do happen, I had a dead bug in the bottom of one of my Dillon Measures from which I had lost the cap.It restricted the flow and I ended up pulling some bullets.
My best advise is to:
Use powder that will overflow if there is a double charge
Finish the shells that are in the operation before you walk away from the press
Only load when you have a block of time that won't be interrupted

 

[LiveLife]

you can't see down into the case on a Pro 1000

Sure you can. Get a small inspection mirror mounted at the right angle and you can view the powder charge in the case before you place a bullet.

Here's one for $4 at Harbor Freight - http://www.harborfreight.com/telescoping-mirror-7361.html

Here's a $7 one on a flexible shaft - http://www.harborfreight.com/2-inch-mirror-with-flexible-shaft-97217.html

You can mount a flashlight or LED light to better visualize the powder charge like this - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7901716#post7901716

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Didn't one of our resident tinkers have a video display to watch?

 

[maxxhavoc]

Walmart and harbor freight sell small flexible-head LED lights. I just tape one of these down to the tool head to shine down into the cases. I have been able to see powder charges in all kinds of cases. I do have to lean forward a bit to see small charges in .38, but it works.

 

[Elkins45]

Thanks bds and maxxhavoc for posts #18 and #20. I'm off to Harbor Fright tomorrow to pick up a mirror and LED light. Great ideas!

Of course now that I have discovered the problem I'm closing the barn door after the horse is out, but it can prevent a next time.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Elkins45 wrote:

GS
I'm not offended, but you should know that you can't see down into the case on a Pro 1000, and there is no loading tray to examine on a progressive press.

To visually check the charge on this press would require physically removing each round from the shellplate, negating any advantage of using a progressive reloader.

It's been so long since I used a pro 1000 that I forgot about the line of sight issues for tall cases. When I used one it was for 9x19 and .380 only and I could see into the cases on those little ones.

A powder check die isn't an option with a 3 die station press. What about a dental mirror mounted on the press?


Edited to add:
Oops, looks like someone beat me to the punch...

 

[maxxhavoc]

Thanks bds and maxxhavoc for posts #18 and #20. I'm off to Harbor Fright tomorrow to pick up a mirror and LED light. Great ideas!

Of course now that I have discovered the problem I'm closing the barn door after the horse is out, but it can prevent a next time.

Do yourself a favor and get a light that takes AA or AAA batteries. Those hearing aid battery style ones will bleed you dry.

 

[ljnowell]

Sure you can. Get a small inspection mirror mounted at the right angle and you can view the powder charge in the case before you place a bullet.

Here's one for $4 at Harbor Freight - http://www.harborfreight.com/telescoping-mirror-7361.html

Here's a $7 one on a flexible shaft - http://www.harborfreight.com/2-inch-mirror-with-flexible-shaft-97217.html

You can mount a flashlight or LED light to better visualize the powder charge like this - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7901716#post7901716

You posted it before I could! This certainly isn't a failure or shortcoming of the Pro1000. If it's mounted in such a way you can't see into the case clearly then you use a mirror. Cheap, easy, and can save a tremendous amount of headache.