Looking to either build or buy and AR, unsure if I should go with .308 or .223, mostly going to use the rifle for target, and a little bit of hunting in the Northwest area of Arizona. Budget minded rifle also, like less than 1000 bucks if possible. Thanks in advance. If I decide to build I would like to go with all parts, like a stripped lower, etc.
Build or Buy an AR rifle
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Dionysusigma
Member
My vote goes for building. Every AR I've ever owned, even the first one, I built myself. You also get to decide exactly what you want inside and out, as opposed to a "store-bought" rifle. My flagship is a $3,000 M16A4gery, but I've had many good experiences with http://www.del-ton.com and http://www.bravocompanyusa.com (for pricier stuff). In fact, I've been thinking of going the Del-Ton route again for a "fun gun." 
Bullnettles
Member
My vote is for buying the upper put together and building your lower. That's how I got started and the investment in tools is minimal. I now build all of it and love it.
General Lee
Member
CMMG Bargain Bin is a good way to get a nice low priced AR. http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/W.A.S.P.-Bargain-Bin-16-inch-M4-1402
Spend $599 on the rifle and have money left to spend on optics for under 1k.
Spend $599 on the rifle and have money left to spend on optics for under 1k.
Wow Im blown away by the amount of reponses in such a short time. (my first time posting on a firearms forum.) Bookmarking all those sites, and going to do some research on parts, any recommendations? On parts?
Edit: What is the difference between post ban, and pre ban barrels like these? They look the same to me,
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt1011.htm
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt1013.htm
Maybe combine one of those with this lower?
http://www.del-ton.com/Del_Ton_Lower_Receiver_with_Buttstock_p/lr102.htm
Edit: What is the difference between post ban, and pre ban barrels like these? They look the same to me,
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt1011.htm
http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt1013.htm
Maybe combine one of those with this lower?
http://www.del-ton.com/Del_Ton_Lower_Receiver_with_Buttstock_p/lr102.htm
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Dionysusigma
Member
Well, the Flagship was done over a long period of time (better part of a year), using top-notch parts from many different sources--the stock and internals are LMT; the trigger is a Geissele SSA; the upper receiver group, including bolt carrier group and charging handle, are BCM; the handguards are Knights Armament; the scope is an ACOG.
90% of stripped lower receivers are just fine. Sometimes, you'll pay more for a name like LMT, Noveske, or whoever; other times, you'll want to stay away from names like Hesse or Vulcan Armament. Colt is known for making theirs out-of-common-spec, so I've stayed away from them, too. However, DTI, Mega Machine, Yankee Hill, Spike's Tactical, Stag, Rock River, CMMG, Bushmaster, Smith and Wesson, Fulton Armory, etc. are just fine--you get to pick what graphic is on the magazine well. Billet lowers and upper/lower matched sets aren't needed for what you intend, so worry about those later.
A site like Del-Ton sells "rifle kits" that are everything you need to turn a stripped lower into a ready-to-shoot rifle, with the upper half already built that start (including shipping) for just under $500. Instructions can be found here: http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-build-stripped-ar-15-rifle-lower-assembly-255593/
The greatest thing about the AR platform is that as time and money allow, you can always easily change or upgrade parts as you like. Heck, my first AR stayed in a basic configuration (everything stock, fixed rear sight) for a couple of years, and it never bothered me.
Internals, for your intended use, can be standard-grade, including the trigger. Hand guards, grip, and stock can be whatever you like--best thing to do is to go to a well-supplied gun shop or well-tabled gun show and handle a lot of different configurations to see what fits you best. Some like Ergo grips, some like MagPul, some like the basic A2--there's no wrong answer here. Get what you like.
As far as recommended starting points go, the only thing I would insist upon is getting a flat-top upper as opposed to one with a fixed carrying handle. If you want a handle later, you can buy a detachable one, but if you get a fixed one and want to add optics later, your options are severely restricted.
Magazines are an important aspect, too. The best to go with are MagPul PMAGs, Lancer L5s, or USGI magazines with MagPul followers. The USGIs are the least expensive at ~$9 apiece, with the PMAGs and L5s running about $15 and are a little more robust. Plus, some think the L5s or PMAGs look cooler.
Ammo. Be sure to save some money for ammo. Lots of ammo. More than you think you'll need, because chances are you'll head to the range with all your magazines loaded and a couple hundred extra, and wonder how you went through all that so fast.
And you'd still need a rear sight, too...
90% of stripped lower receivers are just fine. Sometimes, you'll pay more for a name like LMT, Noveske, or whoever; other times, you'll want to stay away from names like Hesse or Vulcan Armament. Colt is known for making theirs out-of-common-spec, so I've stayed away from them, too. However, DTI, Mega Machine, Yankee Hill, Spike's Tactical, Stag, Rock River, CMMG, Bushmaster, Smith and Wesson, Fulton Armory, etc. are just fine--you get to pick what graphic is on the magazine well.
Billet lowers and upper/lower matched sets aren't needed for what you intend, so worry about those later.A site like Del-Ton sells "rifle kits" that are everything you need to turn a stripped lower into a ready-to-shoot rifle, with the upper half already built that start (including shipping) for just under $500. Instructions can be found here: http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-build-stripped-ar-15-rifle-lower-assembly-255593/
The greatest thing about the AR platform is that as time and money allow, you can always easily change or upgrade parts as you like. Heck, my first AR stayed in a basic configuration (everything stock, fixed rear sight) for a couple of years, and it never bothered me.
Internals, for your intended use, can be standard-grade, including the trigger. Hand guards, grip, and stock can be whatever you like--best thing to do is to go to a well-supplied gun shop or well-tabled gun show and handle a lot of different configurations to see what fits you best. Some like Ergo grips, some like MagPul, some like the basic A2--there's no wrong answer here. Get what you like.
As far as recommended starting points go, the only thing I would insist upon is getting a flat-top upper as opposed to one with a fixed carrying handle. If you want a handle later, you can buy a detachable one, but if you get a fixed one and want to add optics later, your options are severely restricted.
Magazines are an important aspect, too. The best to go with are MagPul PMAGs, Lancer L5s, or USGI magazines with MagPul followers. The USGIs are the least expensive at ~$9 apiece, with the PMAGs and L5s running about $15 and are a little more robust. Plus, some think the L5s or PMAGs look cooler.
Ammo. Be sure to save some money for ammo. Lots of ammo. More than you think you'll need, because chances are you'll head to the range with all your magazines loaded and a couple hundred extra, and wonder how you went through all that so fast.
Bayonet lug. Some places still don't allow them, but if it's not an issue for you, then get whichever you prefer.
Possible, but you'd still save money and gain knowledge by building exactly that with a bag of loose parts and the video above.
And you'd still need a rear sight, too...Ok cool, thanks again for all the info, I think I will look into the Stripped lower + a LPK.
I have heard a lot of great things about Magpul. ( I like the look of there mags so most likely going to go with them)
On the topic of ammo, there is never enough ammo, (I used to shoot trap for my high school, 200 plus rounds on a Saturday.)
I will probably go without the bayonet lug, less weight, not much but it adds up. For in the beginning just run iron sights, maybe the flip up ones from magpul so I can have a good backup for when I go with a better sight later on. Flat top is a must for me. I will have to look into some of the other companys you mentiond for the stripped lowers.
I have heard a lot of great things about Magpul. ( I like the look of there mags so most likely going to go with them)
On the topic of ammo, there is never enough ammo
, (I used to shoot trap for my high school, 200 plus rounds on a Saturday.)I will probably go without the bayonet lug, less weight, not much but it adds up. For in the beginning just run iron sights, maybe the flip up ones from magpul so I can have a good backup for when I go with a better sight later on. Flat top is a must for me. I will have to look into some of the other companys you mentiond for the stripped lowers.
Whether you build or buy I found this web sight that discusses different platforms. I found it to be very useful.
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?81462-So-you-want-to-buy-an-AR-15-huh
http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?81462-So-you-want-to-buy-an-AR-15-huh
Building isn't cheaper than buying. That's because a builder will upgrade parts they want that are not available on a $599 rifle. It's the nature of why they build.
Order a complete lower, and an upper, from the same source, assemble it at the FFL - two pins, and you save the gun tax of about $100. If they have the features you want, all you lose is the warranty on a working complete rifle.
Build it, and keep a tight rein on parts, costs will be low. Very few bother as the point of building is to put together something that isn't on the market. Yes, you could start with a complete $599 gun, but selling off the parts you discard makes the whole thing expensive. They tend to accumulate into another rifle, then another.
It works out OK if a cash budget is the plan, as you buy the parts when you can. That way there is no negative budget situation, and significant others aren't impacted.
What you build needs to be very specific, and should hold true to it's purpose. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, because the result is at cross purposes. Nonetheless, they pop up in forums, and the usual reaction is "Way to go," rather than "What the heck?"
There are a lot of parts out there to make money for the manufacturers, and they have little to no return on accuracy, or reliability. It's easy to tell which ones - there is no guarantee that they will add or do "X" more. Just a lot of add copy and hype. For example, some makers do guarantee 1/2 MOA - but none of the free float makers. They can't, it's up to the barrel. For another $200, the money should go to the barrel first. If it can shoot 1/2 MOA, don't torque the handguards. It'll deliver. BUT, you have to actually be able to shoot 1/2 MOA, too. All too many don't shoot enough to actually need free floats, or see the improvement.
And there are lots of sellers out there to help justify the expense. It's a buyer be aware market, and plenty of owners who don't want their purchases questioned, but adored. That's the other side of guns no one wants to talk about, ego toys for male enhancement. It's very difficult to separate the motivations for certain parts in a build - just like hot rods. Often, the real horsepower isn't in a shiny paint job at a Kustom Kar show. At least everyone is right up front those are about appearances, not track records. With guns, too many attempt both. It can't be done there, either.
Order a complete lower, and an upper, from the same source, assemble it at the FFL - two pins, and you save the gun tax of about $100. If they have the features you want, all you lose is the warranty on a working complete rifle.
Build it, and keep a tight rein on parts, costs will be low. Very few bother as the point of building is to put together something that isn't on the market. Yes, you could start with a complete $599 gun, but selling off the parts you discard makes the whole thing expensive. They tend to accumulate into another rifle, then another.
It works out OK if a cash budget is the plan, as you buy the parts when you can. That way there is no negative budget situation, and significant others aren't impacted.
What you build needs to be very specific, and should hold true to it's purpose. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, because the result is at cross purposes. Nonetheless, they pop up in forums, and the usual reaction is "Way to go," rather than "What the heck?"
There are a lot of parts out there to make money for the manufacturers, and they have little to no return on accuracy, or reliability. It's easy to tell which ones - there is no guarantee that they will add or do "X" more. Just a lot of add copy and hype. For example, some makers do guarantee 1/2 MOA - but none of the free float makers. They can't, it's up to the barrel. For another $200, the money should go to the barrel first. If it can shoot 1/2 MOA, don't torque the handguards. It'll deliver. BUT, you have to actually be able to shoot 1/2 MOA, too. All too many don't shoot enough to actually need free floats, or see the improvement.
And there are lots of sellers out there to help justify the expense. It's a buyer be aware market, and plenty of owners who don't want their purchases questioned, but adored. That's the other side of guns no one wants to talk about, ego toys for male enhancement. It's very difficult to separate the motivations for certain parts in a build - just like hot rods. Often, the real horsepower isn't in a shiny paint job at a Kustom Kar show. At least everyone is right up front those are about appearances, not track records. With guns, too many attempt both. It can't be done there, either.
Quentin
Member
I lean toward building the lower and buying an upper that meets your specs. That's what I did for my first AR last year and it turned out just the way I wanted it instead of having to settle for something off the rack in town. I did a lot of research before starting and got what I wanted for not much more than a very basic AR.
I've just completed my second lower and shopping around for uppers. In no rush since I'm still determining which profile I want and there's such a wide field online.
After carefully selecting the components for a build (including the rollmark on my lowers and top quality LPKs/stocks) I can't imagine buying average stuff off the rack.
I've just completed my second lower and shopping around for uppers. In no rush since I'm still determining which profile I want and there's such a wide field online.
After carefully selecting the components for a build (including the rollmark on my lowers and top quality LPKs/stocks) I can't imagine buying average stuff off the rack.
ol' scratch
Member
Build. It is very easy and you gain a much better appreciation for the system. Besides, it is a lot of fun to build your own rifle.
I am set on building, now I just need to wait till may to buy the stripped lower the 21yo age restriction is kind of silly, I know you can build a pistol out of it but what if I buy it with a stock attached to it? Hmm, maybe just accumulate all the parts till then.
the 21yo age restriction is kind of silly, I know you can build a pistol out of it but what if I buy it with a stock attached to it? Hmm, maybe just accumulate all the parts till then.Carter
Member
I think ASSEMBLING an AR is always a good idea. Buy an upper and lower separate so you can customize a little, and usually save some money. That way you're not wondering where something goes or how it works. Just pop it together and push the pins in.
poortrader
Member
BUY ONE. You really don't save that much money by building it.
Lots of guys recommend building, but I wonder if the term "building" has a universal meaning. Some believe that buying a complete upper and then buying a complete lower and slapping them together constitutes building an AR. When you say that you want to build one, do you mean from the ground up?
If you're talking about doing it from the ground up, I've gotta ask if you've ever done it before? Yes, the parts are supposed to just go together, but sometimes they don't. Do you know enough about the rifle to diagnose a problem if all seems to go well during the build, but it won't run right.
I just built this tonight....
It took me around two hours. I used all quality parts. Magpul stock, Douglas barrel, Spike's lower, Vltor MUR upper, Geissele trigger, Bushmaster tube, etc. The build almost went together without a hitch, but I had trouble with the barrel nut. When lining up the hole in the barrel nut for the gas tube, at one position I didn't have 30lbs of torque on it. When I tried to get to the next position, I would have had to exceed 80lbs of torque to get it there. I pulled out my lapping fixture and lapped a few thousandths off of the face of the upper and I was able to get it into position with about 45lbs of torque. Perfect. The thing is, what are you going to do if this happens to you?
I'd say, buy a complete rifle and get to know it and develop a better understanding for what makes an AR tick. Then build your next one. I would recommend starting to accumulate the proper tools. You'll need them to work on the AR you buy anyway. Some guys will speak of building an AR with nothing but a hammer, a nail as a punch and a bench vice with rubber jaws. Yes, you could do it that way, but I wouldn't risk a $200 billet upper because I wanted to cut corners. Get the right tools.
I'd suggest getting a complete rifle from Spike's or at the least order the complete upper and lower separately and assemble them. You can get one for around $800.
If you're talking about doing it from the ground up, I've gotta ask if you've ever done it before? Yes, the parts are supposed to just go together, but sometimes they don't. Do you know enough about the rifle to diagnose a problem if all seems to go well during the build, but it won't run right.
I just built this tonight....
It took me around two hours. I used all quality parts. Magpul stock, Douglas barrel, Spike's lower, Vltor MUR upper, Geissele trigger, Bushmaster tube, etc. The build almost went together without a hitch, but I had trouble with the barrel nut. When lining up the hole in the barrel nut for the gas tube, at one position I didn't have 30lbs of torque on it. When I tried to get to the next position, I would have had to exceed 80lbs of torque to get it there. I pulled out my lapping fixture and lapped a few thousandths off of the face of the upper and I was able to get it into position with about 45lbs of torque. Perfect. The thing is, what are you going to do if this happens to you?
I'd say, buy a complete rifle and get to know it and develop a better understanding for what makes an AR tick. Then build your next one. I would recommend starting to accumulate the proper tools. You'll need them to work on the AR you buy anyway. Some guys will speak of building an AR with nothing but a hammer, a nail as a punch and a bench vice with rubber jaws. Yes, you could do it that way, but I wouldn't risk a $200 billet upper because I wanted to cut corners. Get the right tools.
I'd suggest getting a complete rifle from Spike's or at the least order the complete upper and lower separately and assemble them. You can get one for around $800.
I have machine shop experience did custom fixtures and some mold making, but I was looking at buying a complete upper, and build/assemble the lower myself, so then I have some understanding of the firearm and then learn over time so I can eventually do a full build from parts.
Zerodefect
member
Buy a BCM upper then build a lower.
I have to build my lowers. Noone offers a lower with a ambi safety, Magpul grip, Magpul ACS, and Magpul BAD lever.
I have to build my lowers. Noone offers a lower with a ambi safety, Magpul grip, Magpul ACS, and Magpul BAD lever.
wnycollector
Member
Maybe a Cav Arms MKII lower that has an A1 Length integral Stock molded into the lower will allow you to purchase before May? Here is the lower that I will be using for my lightweight build (once BCM gets 14.5 LW uppers back in stock!) http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/CAVMKIIBLACK.aspx
As much as I like to get hands on it can be cheaper to buy than build. Or often it comes pretty close. If you know what you want that helps, if not you can end up about the same. The more you know of the AR the better you can do. If you can detail strip a lower you can most likely do one from scratch. You sound 110% capable.
It is just my nature to DIY and I tend to like to see how the parts interact.
That said I have gotten some fantastic deal on used firearms. The key is to get pre-owned with some extras, not worn out or abused.
It is just my nature to DIY and I tend to like to see how the parts interact.
That said I have gotten some fantastic deal on used firearms. The key is to get pre-owned with some extras, not worn out or abused.
FMJMIKE
Member
Buy your first one !!!
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