Building a 1911 from a kit, questions.

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Hammerhead6814

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First off, every tells me that you will spend between $500-600 bucks on tools alone. So if anyone who's built a 1911 from a parts kit can tell me if a drill press, grinding and wire brush wheels (it's an all-in-one), about ten different files, a pound or two of sandpaper, and an unorganized toolbox are enough?

Second off, keep hearing that this is going to cost between $2-3 THOUSAND dollars to do. Just for the parts. The thing that is baffling me about that is that Sarco inc has every part you need minus the frame for $210 ( http://www.sarcoinc.com/cgm.html ). Brownells is selling frames from $200-ish ( http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=4968&title=1911 AUTO RECEIVER ) to the $400-ish mark.

So for Sarco parts and a frame from Brownells it's going to be around anywhere from $400 to $700 bucks (includings tax).

Just what exactly are some guys using to make these things for $3000? I can't even figure out where your getting the parts from that would make it cost that much.
 
if you are patient and skilled you can do a lot of good work with different quality files, emerypaper, some punches, a mallet, some hammers, some abrasive compound, and the infamous dremel. the de
remel can be good for some things, if used correct, and it can ruin other things if used incorrectly.

a friend of mine used to install bo-mar sights with files, a hacksaw, and a drill press... he's patient!

hammer/sear engagement surface work is possible with a good vise and square blocks(im norwegian, dont know what its called in english), but that is not easy.

a skilled man with a file can do many things other people cant do with all the tools and fancy jigs that are around, but it takes time.
 
Instructions

Maybe you've already seen this. Brownell's takes you through the process with links to all the tools and parts.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=0&t=1&i=505

I changed out the sights on my Norinco 1911 and that required quite a bit of patience and more time than I expected. I would expect if you put any value on your time, it's not cost effective, but surely would be a good learning experience.
 
Just because you 'can' do it, doesn't mean that you should.

Sure you can get those surplus parts... Anyone can assemble a 1911 from parts. Do you want it to function reliably and potentially stake your life on that function? Do you want it to be able to hit the broad side of a barn?

Are you aware of how the timing of the barrel/slide and frame lockup should function? Are you aware of how the locking lugs of the barrel and slide should fit together? Are you skilled at setting the sear/hammer hooks angles so the action doesn't slam fire after you've taken that first shot? Making one of these pistols go 'full auto' is not difficult. Not what you want. You certainly don't want the hammer to follow through when you drop the slide on a live cartridge. Are you skilled at aligning the internal pieces so that the grip safety and thumb safety function as designed?

Building a gun from scrap parts isn't impossible. Doing it right, with inside and outside lug cutters and jigs to presicely file and stone the trigger control pieces so it is safe to fire is a different challenge. There are several other intracasies with building a 1911 correctly, that this job is best left with a trained gunsmith.

Yes, you can build a 1911 from parts available off the internet. It really shouldn't cost you more than $6-800. Add to that your surface finishing requirements. There are special tools to fit slides to frames. There are special tools to stake and set sights. There are special tools to mill modifications. And no, your drill press, jewelers files, wire brushes, and sand paper are not equivelent substitutes.

That said... I am not a gunsmith. Will I try it some day. Probably! (when I've got some disposable money.)

-Steve
 
So for Sarco parts and a frame from Brownells it's going to be around anywhere from $400 to $700 bucks (includings tax).
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If that's the kind of gun you want why not buy a Taurus?
 
krs said:
If that's the kind of gun you want why not buy a Taurus?
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Because you can't find them in KC at the moment. Not for what their worth (cheapest in the area is $650-ish not including tax).

Steve said:
Sure you can get those surplus parts... Anyone can assemble a 1911 from parts. Do you want it to function reliably and potentially stake your life on that function? Do you want it to be able to hit the broad side of a barn?

Are you aware of how the timing of the barrel/slide and frame lockup should function? Are you aware of how the locking lugs of the barrel and slide should fit together? Are you skilled at setting the sear/hammer hooks angles so the action doesn't slam fire after you've taken that first shot? Making one of these pistols go 'full auto' is not difficult. Not what you want. You certainly don't want the hammer to follow through when you drop the slide on a live cartridge. Are you skilled at aligning the internal pieces so that the grip safety and thumb safety function as designed?

Building a gun from scrap parts isn't impossible. Doing it right, with inside and outside lug cutters and jigs to presicely file and stone the trigger control pieces so it is safe to fire is a different challenge. There are several other intracasies with building a 1911 correctly, that this job is best left with a trained gunsmith.

Yes, you can build a 1911 from parts available off the internet. It really shouldn't cost you more than $6-800. Add to that your surface finishing requirements. There are special tools to fit slides to frames. There are special tools to stake and set sights. There are special tools to mill modifications. And no, your drill press, jewelers files, wire brushes, and sand paper are not equivelent substitutes.

That said... I am not a gunsmith. Will I try it some day. Probably! (when I've got some disposable money.)

-Steve
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Brownells has a guide on how its done. The parts you do not remove for cleaning, that is where my challenge will be. I've field-stripped these, not ones I have owned, but a friends Springfield a few times. I also have a blueprint for a 1911. I'm not sure if this means it will work the same as a 1911A1.

What are the "special tools" your talking about? Please don't be like the guy who told me I need a CNC milling machine :uhoh: . John Browning didn't have one and he did alright.
 
A friend of mine assembled a number of usable guns from military surplus parts and Essex frames with hand tools. You don't have to have fancy equipment but you do have to know what is going on.
 
I can't even figure out where your getting the parts from that would make it cost that much.
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The really good guys are making them for themselves, or using Caspian or similar components. They are not cheap when you want well-made parts that are reliable and dimensionally correct. The problem is that Sarco kits are grab-bags of parts produced all over the place (even world) to different tolerances. Some times they go together and work, sometimes they don't. usually they go together and work because the barrel is so loosely fit it can't interfere with the slide, but that also means it won't be accurate or probably last terribly long. Starting with high-quality parts will greatly reduce your frustration and increase your chances of success. I say chances, as without some specialty tools and knowledge, there is no guarantee of getting a functioning barrel/slide/frame fit and thus a working gun. I have built a few; I know how hard it is for the amateur to do it.

For $700, I'd start shopping for a used, but excellent condition, Colt Series 70 or 80. I bought a series '70 last week with a few hundred rounds on it and looking like new for exactly that amount.
 
Hey Oro, what are the "special tools" that I keep hearing about? :confused:

A lot of guys have given me a lot of differing opinions on Sarco. But you are right, these are grab-bags (the vast consensus says so anyways). Some guys tell me they've received parts from Imbel that actually did fit together the first time around :cool: . Others have told me their barrels went so far as to completely obscure the magazine (in other words it wouldn't feed, for it was impossible).

But one thing is apparently for sure: I'm going to burn a lot of files if I get a Sarco bag. :uhoh:

The only thing left that's still letting me entertain a Sarco kit is that if I screw up, big deal. If I were to remove to much material from a Wilson Combat barrel, I've really burned myself, where-as the $40 P.O.S. you get in the bag could be used to learn the proper techniques involved with this project.

So maybe I'll get the bag, and if I screw up, big deal. At least I'm not tearing apart Wilson made parts. And if there is room from improvement, well at least I've learned what not to do or how to do it right the first time. :)

EDIT: 1911's for under $700 are becoming hard to find in KC. There is a Taurus 1911 for $650 not including tax at Showme, but come on, it's a TAURUS. Not that their really horrible or anything, but paying over $600 bucks ($700 with tax) for one is absurd. You used to be able to find a used Kimber for that price.
 
Evert about has it. I think the milling machine is not absolutely necessary with good parts, and you don't "need" the checkering jig. I think a lug cutter is necessary to get the barrel correct. The lathe is needed to fit a bushing - you cannot do those by hand. Or get an old Colt Series 70 barrel with a collet bushing, which is basically self-adjusting and actually is reported to become MORE accurate with shooting as it grooves in. I like those and have two guns with them. The poor reputation was not deserved (they were factory parts for 18 years - you can be sure if there were warranty claims and problems it would have not taken that long to change the design!).

But the other thing you have to have is the knowledge of how to do it. It is not easy or intuitive - you can read it, but getting it right will take long, slow practice. This can consume your evening for six months or more to get the gun together correctly (no kidding).

So no one is saying don't do it, but for sure, know what you are getting into for the job to be done properly.
 
My .02, FWIW:

Starting with quality parts the first time is going to make life a lot easier. "Grab bags" and other such parts are gonna be a crap shoot as far as fitting, especially if they are used parts; pins wear out, pin holes wear out, hammer hooks and sear noses wear down, too. No such thing as drop-in parts for these guns, generally speaking. Quality parts, again generally speaking, are going to be more dimensionally "correct" than "grab-bag" parts and will probably need less fitting overall. Those are gonna increase cost, though.

I agree with Oro. Having done this build before, I would say that the most important "special tool" is knowledge. I read Kuhnhasen's books, Hallock's book, and just about everything that Tuner and others posted on this board before I got started. I also found Shuey's DVDs from AGI to be helpful.

Hope this helped.....
 
When I started that's about all I had. A good file is a beautiful thing.
 
How else will you learn?
Basic hand tools are all you need to start. Files, stones, bench block, punches and hammer.
I would wait to get a dremmel tool until you determine that you really need it.
Form follows function so work for reliability first and then make it look good.

Have fun with it.
 
I'm torn between the guys who say the special tools will make my life easier and the guys who are saying all I need is a good file (or in my case several), and patience. I've read a guide by someone who built one from a Sarco kit, he stressed that time and patience were the two best tools to have. He stated that his build took over a year (mostly because he waited and waited for parts to arrive).

Here's the site: http://how-i-did-it.org/1911-project/index.html

Just thought about something. Is anyone here from Kansas or Missouri and have built a 1911 before? If so, is it possible I could rent some of the tools you used from you?
 
You will spend more building one. Yes you can build one on the cheep using cheep parts but for what you pay you could have gotten a cheep 1911 for less. Most folks build for the joy of it.

If you want a cheep 1911 look at Rock Island, Armscor and Auto Ordinance. You should be able to find one in the $500.00 range or less.
 
About the "discount" parts out there. Years back I bought mags from a high volume seller on gunbroker. The mags were worse than junk. Worst metal I have seen used in any mag I have owned. Well, I returned and got replacements. Same deal. Returned for cash refund.

Then once I inadverently bid on a new hammer/sear set from the same seller. I didn't realize he was the seller when I bid since I was switching windows looking for parts. I made good on my bid and paid. The hooks on the cast hammer were hideous. No way they could be squared without them being dangerously thin, let alone the porosity of the casting. Cash back!

I am no pistolwrench, but careful with buying bulk parts...some are good, some not so good. I'd start with a rock island or SA milspec, so you know what good parts look like and measure out to. $600 - $800 is accurate for a build, less the finish, as mentioned above. For me to duplicate my last build, buying all the parts again, I see $850 - $1000 for parts and sight cuts. I already have the tools and supplies I need.
 
Just buy one GI setup and send it to a very good gunsmith.
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... Sure. Then I'll buy a SIG 556, a golden AK-47, and while I'm at it an original year production Garand.

Price being an issue, your talking about spending at minimum $1000-$1300 dollars. I do not have that kind of money just laying around.

You will spend more building one. Yes you can build one on the cheap using cheap parts but for what you pay you could have gotten a cheap 1911 for less. Most folks build for the joy of it.

If you want a cheap 1911 look at Rock Island, Armscor and Auto Ordinance. You should be able to find one in the $500.00 range or less.
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Perhaps before the panic. But good luck finding a 1911 for under $550 in KC these days. Cheapest at show-me-shooters in Claycomo is $630, and the cheapest at Great Guns, Liberty, was the same, both were Taurus. Whoever heard of spending $600 on a TAURUS? Whoever spends $500 for what Rock Island or Taurus makes is wasting their money in my opinion. You used to be able to find a decent... anything for that price. You could even find a Kimber (albeit an old one) for $650.

Caspian frames are $200, Sarco parts are $210, or upgrade to Caspian gear and some parts (pins and such) from Sarco would bring the total cost to around $450-$470. That's with FFL and shipping.
 
Building a .45 Auto.

It really depends on your definition of "building" and what you want as an end product and what the end use is.First I would suggest a book by Hallock or Jerry K.
Remember the .45 auto was designed with tolerances where parts were interchangable. My uncle tells me that during WW2 he took many disassembled pistols and dumped them into a common cleaning tank and guns reassembled when the parts were cleaned. In other words all parts were interchanged many times over. The end result was a workable and reliable pistols with so-so accuracy. The accuracy of a military .45 with all parts within tolerance is usually 6-8" at 50 yards. If this is what you want then that can be accomplished with minimal common tools.
Using a Sarco kit you will end up with no-name parts ( esp. the slide)with a questionable quality, thus no resale value. Many cheap parts are made with cheap manufacturing procedures and questionable tolerances.
As long as you use parts of known manufacture ( I recommend Caspian slide and frame that can be fitted together, Ed Brown parts, mil-spec parts and others) then you should be O.K..
If your objective is to have a bullseye Match pistol with accuracy of 2 1/2" or less at fifty yards with all the bells and whistles I suggest you buy.
Things I would NOT try are squeezing the slide and peening the rails for a tighter frame/slide fit.
I would not recommend trying to fit a match barrel/bushing. A drop-in barrel with a fitted bushing would be o.k.
Your first trigger job will probably not be acceptable but $45.00 will get you a new hammer and sear. Sights that "sunk" into the slide are not doable at home.
Your decision.
 
Regarding the checkering jig, beavertail jig and the hammer & sear jig, you don't need to have them. Having said that it does save time if you do use them. Don't bite off more than you can chew. If you have the time and the willingness to learn give it a try. If you're the type with a thousand projects laying around half finished, don't. Good luck!
 
Instead of checkering, you could cut a piece of skateboard tape and stick place it on the front of the grip. The friction coefficient is as good and no alteration to the pistol is necessary. I actually prefer this for some of my 1911's.
 
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