BULLETS for the Back Country

[ArmedBear]

I didn't want to make this into a bear thread, for obvious reasons.

However, I have a few questions about handgun bullets, specifically for .357 and .44 Magnum calibers.

Looking around, it seems that a lot of bullets for these are jhp or jhc designs, or some fancier equivalent from Nosler or Barnes.

However, it doesn't seem to me that .44 Magnum really needs much expansion to work. My gut feeling is that a hardcast bullet or JSP would be better on something tough like a bear, cougar, pissed-off moose, etc., and would work fine on your average wild canine anyway.

I have never used a handgun to hunt, or to defend against dangerous wildlife.

I'm looking for thoughts, ideas, literature, etc.

What say you?

JHP, JHC, JSP, LSWC, LRNFP, JFP (like Buffalo Bore offers in .45ACP)?

Does JHP offer enough penetration for Black Bears?

What about high-velocity 180 grain .357?

Thanks in advance for any good info.

 

[huntershooter]

If I were choosing a bullet for a .357 "back country" revolver it would be a 180 gr. WFNGC (Cast Performance or Beartooth Bullets).
I would run it @ 1200-1300 fps from a 4" revolver.

 

[BigBlock]

Usually I carry 240 grain JSPs in my .44 and 158 grain JSPs in my .357. Main reason...they're cheapest. I would, however, feel totally safe if faced with a bear or mountain lion - both prevalent where I go shooting.

Also perfect if you happen across a random meth lab...

 

[MCgunner]

I've killed three deer with a 158 grain SWC in the .357 and didn't need any bullet expansion. Those deer dropped quite dead. I've shoulder shot trapped hogs with the same load from a 3" carry gun, but they weren't large hogs, 150 lbs for the biggest one. It went right on through and the hog didn't last long. I just wanted to see what the load would do. At 10 feet it wasn't a problem, LOL. One of those deer was shot at 80 yards with a carbine, the other two were under 50 with a Blackhawk 6.5". The load is a Lee gas check mold bullet over 14.5 grains of 2400. This is sort of my general purpose load.

 

[dmazur]

One of these days I'm going to have to try some more sophisticated bullets for .44 Mag, but for now I have a good supply of Speer 240gr JSP's.

These work well in my Ruger .44 carbines and also in the Ruger SBH.

I am going on the experience of others with the "old standby", the 240gr JSP. I think it was the common Remington .44 Mag hunting load for many years, and there weren't a lot of complaints.

Modern design and materials has undoubtedly created better bullets for both expansion and penetration, depending on what you want the bullet to do. I kind of think the 240gr JSP is a compromise, expanding less easily than the hollow points and penetrating less than hard-cast.

 

[GP100man]

i`ve shot my share of deer with a 44 & mostly shot from a stand .
thru the shoulder & 240 jhps would break up on the blade but something would hold together enuff to make exit wounds in the off side ribs , a jsp is a better bone buster !!
i`ve recently gotten more serious & addicted to my boolit castin & plan on shootin some deer with em !!
429421 in the 44 & 358429 in the 357

GP100man

 

[LeonCarr]

Sometimes the "standards" perform better than the "sophisticateds" .

I seriously doubt any JSP or JHP will out penetrate a basic hard cast lead bullet, especially the Keith type SWCs or the various WFNGC types.

I use a 240 SWC in the .44 or a 158 SWC in the .357 99% of the time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[ArmedBear]

I guess part of what I'm wondering is whether a JSP would work appreciably differently from a cast lead bullet.

It's easier to get a higher-velocity load for a jacketed bullet. But is a JSP a poor choice?

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I like JSP's, its basically a controlled expansion bullet, they are designed for deep penetration with expansion.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I much prefer JSP's in 300gr from a .44 magnum.

In .357, not all revolvers (esp small frame) can chamber a hot loaded 180gr bullet, that's a really long for caliber load at 'maximum' (Unless of course you own a 357 Maximum).

This is also true of some 300 gr XTP bullets we loaded up for a Ruger Super Blackhack .44, they are too long to feed in a Marlin 1894 rifle.

If you get there by 'rolling your own' keep that in mind.

Mostly in .357 I'll load a 158gr Hyrda shock in a full sized gun, or a Remington 125 gr JSP in a snubby.

 

[dmazur]

This isn't related to revolvers, but I thought I'd toss it in anyway -

The Ruger .44 carbine doesn't like lead bullets...the manual tells you to use jacketed bullets to prevent fouling the gas mechanism.

I'm aware that this doesn't limit what I can feed the rugged SBH revolver, nor does the 1.610" COL that the carbine likes. So, one of these days I'm going to explore what the revolver can handle. (And probably how much recoil I can stand...)

So the 240gr JSP is based on present experience, partly limited by laziness and partly limited by the boxes I've already loaded for the carbine. I know there's better stuff out there, but I haven't played with it yet.

 

[pps]

Here is the LBT style I used to take a 200# sow last spring for through and through broadside penetration. The col is longer than standard .357 so make a dummy round to see if it chambers in your revolver,



Also. These rounds go through my bullet trap of 24 inches of shredded tires and still leaves huge dents in the arresting plate!

 

[Redhawk1]

Jacketed hollow point bullets are designed to expand rapidly, and create a big wound channel. But they do not penetrate well. Jacketed soft point bullets are designed to expand as well but not as rapidly. They will penetrate further than a hollow point bullet. Hard cast bullets are designed to penetrate with very little to no expansion.

Any time you punch a hole through any animal with a hard cast bullet, and hit vitals you are going to kill that animal. I have taken several black bear, hogs and deer with hard cast bullets from handgun. With the proper shot placement, I have never lost an animal, and I never had to go further than 50 yards to find them.

The reason I don't use or recommend JHP bullets for hunting is, they are prone to bullet failure. Hit a bone and you loose penetration, and you may not hit the vitals, to make a clean kill.

I used hollow point bullets in my 357 Mag, 41 Mag and 44 Mag when I first started handgun hunting over 27 years ago. I had JHP bullets from them all fail when I hit the shoulder blade of deer, at even close range. I am talking 10 yards. As I got more experience in handgun hunting, and learned about what actually works the best. I then switched. I have been using hard cast bullets for all my handgun hunting.

Is a hard cast bullet needed for deer, no they are not. A good jacketed soft point will work just fine on deer. But if my guns are shooting hard cast bullets well, why should I use a JSP and have to develop a good load just for deer, when I can use the same bullet I use to kill larger game, Dead is Dead.

Above all else, shot placement is most impotent, followed by having a well constructed bullet to reach the vitals to get the job done. Using a hard cast bullet, almost every time makes two holes in your game, and if you are black bear hunting, you want 2 big holes to let the blood out. Blood loose kills quick, and makes it easy for tracking as well. With all the fat on black bear and the long hair, it will soak up blood and plug a hole quick. If you make 2 big holes, most of the time the animal will loose more blood faster.

So for me it is a no brainier, hard cast bullets, such a WFN, LFN and LBT work, and work better than JHP, JHC, JSP, JFP.

I am talking from 27 years of handgun hunting experience, and having killed several black bear with handguns.

 

[41 Mag]

If you want to stick with jacketed, there are several which would work very well for your calibers. One of the best I have shot, now sadly discontinued by Speer, was the semi-jacketed soft or hp. It was basically like shooting a jacketed Keith type. But there are still great choices available.

For your 357, the choice is yours but other than the Cast Performance or similar, I would personally stick with the 158gr loads, and use WFP's or similar designs, and not go for anything with a HP. I am using the 158gr RNFP from Oregon Trail for hogs in my GP100, and they shoot great and penetrate very well.

With the 44, I would probably stick with loads using 240 - 260grs in jacketed, and nothing over 300 in cast. This way you should still get the best velocities with plenty of weight for penetration. Something like the Sierra Tournement Master should do the trick. For most general shooting and hunting with mine, I am using the bulk Remington 240gr SJHP's with a medium load of about 1100fps. For feral hogs they are all I need as the big soft nose opens up and bowls them over. I can't say how much they expand or over expand as I haven't recovered one yet. They do however leave quarter to half dollar sized exits on 200'ish pound hogs shot from just about any angle. I do know however if loaded to top end velocities they will completely destroy the off side shoulder of a mature whitetail and turn loose of the jacket on a decent size hog.

There are a number of bullets in both calibers which would offer the items your looking for. With the choices out there and your parameters, I would surely stick with a JSP or similar, or hardcast. Which one of them shoots the best for you, at a recoil level your comfortable with, and can afford to practice quite a bit with, would be the top on my list. However, working up a great load for the higher priced ones, then using something much cheaper to practice with works as well as long as both loads shoot closely.

Be sure to slug or have your barrels and cylinders slugged, before jumping into the cast bullets however. This will definately be a plus to know what your buying is going to shoot well in your particular gun. After you know the bore and cylinder diameters, call the caster and inquire about their product and if it will work well with your deminsions. Some will size your bullets accordingly if needed, or will let you know if what they offer will work. Trust me when I say, not all bullets will work in all guns even if they are the right caliber, and it isn't fun to spend an afternoon scraping the lead from the groves of your favorite revolver. I have not had any issues with Oregon Trial, or Cast Performance bullets in any of my handguns so far, and I generally run them right up close to top end velocities. I cannot say the same about other makes.

The great thing about cast bullets is that you still can get great velocities, and awesome penetration, with out pushing the loads to the max in most cases.

Good Luck and post back up with what you decide on, and how they work out for ya.

 

[wcwhitey]

Keith style Semi-Wadcutters in both .357 and .44. Make mine with gaschecks and wide broad noses with sharp shoulders. The .357 with gas check weighs in at 173 grains and the .44 about 255. Plenty of loading data available for both. For me its all about penetration for wild animals. My personal loadings for the .44 Mag kill cleaner and faster than the hollow point rounds I have loaded and they do it at slightly slower velocities.

 

[LeonCarr]

My do anything load in the .357 is a 158 SWC at about 1200 fps. I surprised a roughly 250 pound boar hog a few years ago moments after he defeated a guillotine type trap. He got inside the trap, ate the corn, had walked back out without tripping the trapdoor, and caught a 158 SWC in the shoulder from about 25 yards away. Bad surprise for him, good surprise for me . I was also surprised that the bullet had exited.

Gotta love the hard cast SWC.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[ArmedBear]

Thanks all!

With all the fancy bullets out there, it's easy to get a more esoteric version of "magnumitis" and forget what I already believe: big hardcast bullets WORK on big game.

I've been using some Oregon Trail bullets, and also no leading so far.

One thing I've noticed, though: Hodgdon (mostly) doesn't list the same powders in .357 for LSWC and jacketed bullets of the same weight.

Now that they have IMR, Winchester and their own brands, that's a lot of powder with seemingly incompletel listings. Alliant does the same thing; MCgunner's 158 grain LSWC over 2400 isn't acknowledged by Alliant, for example.

I settled on 21.5 grains of IMR 4227 behind the 240 grain Oregon Trail .44 Magnum and it works pretty well from what I can tell.

So, a couple more questions, if you'll bear with me.

What load data to you use for extra-hard bullets like Oregon Trail (24 BHN as opposed to 22 for Lino, 15 for #2, 9 for wheel weights)? What about when the powder company doesn't want to provide any?

When/why/how does a gas check enter into the picture? (My 240s seem to work fine without one, but I'm sure there's a reason for that.)

Is a slight flattening -- no bulging or expansion -- of the primer in a revolver normal in a .44 Magnum load, or is this already a sign of too much pressure? I've seen this in "cowboy" loads, too, but I think that this was from the case slamming back: there was no obturation of the brass because the pressure was too low for the good magnum cases I was using. Anyone know how best to interpret what I see?

Thanks again!

And the sort of real-world experience-based knowledge you guys have shared is EXACTLY what I want.

 

[ChefJeff1]

When in the Sawtooths, I use a 180gr hard cast. I think it's by federal. CAbfelas has a reloading seminar this Wed from 6-8 pm. If you go, let me know.

 

[buck460XVR]

Is a slight flattening -- no bulging or expansion -- of the primer in a revolver normal in a .44 Magnum load, or is this already a sign of too much pressure?

in my experience it's quite normal. I get it even from factory loads in my .357s, .44s and the .460. Without a chrono, I generally compare my primers on my spent handloads to those on the spent factory cases to establish safe pressure when fired from the same handgun. I know the "new" theory is that this is not correct, but it works for me and had worked for many years before chronos became a "have to have" accessory for reloaders.

 

[ArmedBear]

I just popped the primers out of the brass of some fired Winchester factory ammo, and some of them were REALLY flattened, some even with metal sticking up above the firing pin indentation. So if I'm comparing, I've got pressure to spare.

Some PMC .44 ammo I have bulges the cases quite a bit when fired, enough that you can immediately see it just casually looking at the brass.

I'm not sure what to think about factory ammo and pressure, any more.