Bullets in the Sky (what goes up, returns at 300fps)

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Harry Tuttle

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Bullets in the Sky
http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm


We frequently get questions about firing bullets vertically into the air. The most frequent question is, "Will bullets fired into the air return to the earth at the same speed they left the gun?" Other questions asked are; "How far does the bullet travel when fired vertically and how long does it take to come down, or does the falling bullet have enough energy to be lethal should it strike someone on the ground?"

Some have tried vertical shooting, but very few have had any luck hearing the bullet come back and strike the ground. When a bullet is fired vertically it immediately begins to slow down because of the effects of gravity and air drag on the bullet. The bullet deceleration continues until at some point the bullet momentarily stops and then it begins to fall back toward earth. A well-balanced bullet will fall base first. Depending on bullet design, some bullets may tumble on their way down and others may turn over and come down point first.

The bullet speed will increase until it reaches its terminal velocity. The bullet reaches terminal velocity when the air drag equals the pull of gravity or stating it another way, the bullet weight and drag are balanced. Once this velocity is achieved the bullet will fall no faster.

In 1920 the U.S. Army Ordnance conducted a series of experiments to try and determine the velocity of falling bullets. The tests were performed from a platform in the middle of a lake near Miami, Florida. The platform was ten feet square and a thin sheet of armor plate was placed over the men firing the gun. The gun was held in a fixture that would allow the gun to be adjusted to bring the shots close to the platform. It was surmised that the sound of the falling bullets could be heard when they hit the water or the platform. They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds.

As a comparison, the .30 caliber bullet fired in a vacuum at 2,700 f.p.s. would rise nearly 21.5 miles and require 84 seconds to make the ascent and another 84 seconds to make its descent. It would return with the same velocity that it left the gun. This gives you some idea of what air resistance or drag does to a bullet in flight.

Wind can have a dramatic effect on where a vertically fired bullet lands. A 5 mile per hour wind will displace the 150 gr. bullet about 365 ft based on the time it takes the bullet to make the round trip to earth. In addition the wind at ground level may be blowing in an entirely different direction than it is at 9,000 feet. It is no wonder that it is so difficult to determine where a falling bullet will land.

Out of the more than 500 shots fired from the test platform only 4 falling bullets struck the platform and one fell in the boat near the platform. One of the bullets striking the platform left a 1/16 inch deep mark in the soft pine board. The bullet struck base first.

Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150 gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a serious wound.

Many other experiments have been made to find the amount of air drag on a .30 caliber bullet at various velocities and it was found that the drag at 320 f.p.s. balances the weight of the .021 lb. (150 gr.) bullet and terminal velocity is achieved. For larger calibers the bullet terminal velocity is higher since the bullet weight is greater in relation to the diameter. Major Julian Hatcher in his book Hatcher’s Notebook estimates that a 12 inch shell weighing 1000 pounds and fired straight up would return with a speed of 1,300 to 1,400 feet per second and over 28 million foot pounds of striking energy.
 
Somewhere in Unintended Consequences John Ross talkes about this, IIRC. I wish I could remember what was said, but l dont want to read 861 pages to remember. It seems as though he stated that the bullet is still spinning like a raped ape at the apex.
 
Bump

Thanks for the serious discussion of this. 300 f/s is still pretty ouchy. For joy shots, I recommend shooting down into a stack of wet newspapers. Of course I have never done such a thing and never will or shall do such a thing.
 
THE work on this was Hatcher's Notebook, by the late Col. Julian Hatcher, who directed the tests in the '20's. He also gives fascinating information on the Springfield rifle, and about the results of ordinance explosions. While he includes a bit of the math, it's still gripping to the layman who is mathematically challenged.

Hatcher had rifles (usually machine guns, IIRC) set up on towers, aimed vertically, at the end of piers over calm water. He then would have observers watch for the splash when the guns were fired and the stopwatch started. In at least one occasion, a bullet came down on the dock (actually, on the gunnel on a boat at the dock), and landed roughly base-on. The imprint in the relatively soft wood was light, and did not show promise of being much of a disabler.

This does not, of course, give one leave to fire into the air with a rifle. Also, it did not duplicate what would occur if a rifle were fired at a lower (say, 40 degree) angle, in which the bullet will still have significant energy before striking the ground (or someone on the ground). As a man whose great uncle was killed by a lowly .22 rimfire bullet that was tumbling as it dropped into that great uncle's chest base-on, I personally implore all here to NOT fire rifles into the air at any time, nor to shoot at anything in a tree without a solid trunk behind it. My great uncle's killer was probably more than a mile away, and probably was shooting at a critter in a tree, never thinking that a family would lose a good man only minutes later. :(
 
On CNN.com today, there is a story about an idiot here in my home state of Tennessee.
Seems he was being initiated into the KKK, (yeah, I know, genius material) and his buddy was shooting a handgun up in the air.
According to the story, "the falling bullet entered the top of his head, and exited the bottom of his skull". Ouch! :(
He was listed in serious condition at the hospital.

They didn't mention the caliber.
 
Considering that a 7gr projectile at 400fps blows clean through a field mouse, I'm not sure I'd want to get tagged with a 150gr projectile at 300fps. The army can take its 60 ft-lb ruminations and fold them 'til they're all sharp corners... :scrutiny:
 
most of the "falling" slug injuries are prolly arcing fire still sailing along under power
 
have wondered about the tales of falling bullets killing and maiming. At 300 FPS a falling slug would hurt right smartly but I see no way it could pierce a skull.

There have been a few cases of people here being killed or injured by "falling bullets" on New Years' Eve. Seems inner city idiots equate firearms and fireworks.
I think if the bullet if fired vertically, goes up, comes to a stop, and falls back down via gravity is only one scenario here. That would probably give you a hell of a headache, but you'd live to tell about it.
On the other hand if the shot was fired a half mile or mile away in a more gentle arc, I think it would be different. Seems to me that since the bullet never came to a stop, it retains most of it's speed and energy. When that one hits you in the head, forget about it.
This is what I think has happened in the falling bullet deaths and serious injuries here. The shot could have been fired anywhere in the city. In the case that made big news, it happened to land in the head of a female tourist at the New Years celebration in the French Quarter.
Don't take the word "falling" in "falling bullets" so literally.

Dave
 
On the other hand if the shot was fired a half mile or mile away in a more gentle arc, I think it would be different. Seems to me that since the bullet never came to a stop, it retains most of it's speed and energy. When that one hits you in the head, forget about it.

Actually, it does come to a stop; at least vertically.

The bullet has two components of motion (OK, actually 3 in 3 dimensions, but let's keep this simple): horizontal and vertical.

As the bullet goes up, the vertical velocity decreases until it becomes zero at the apex, and then increases at gravity accelerates it back to the ground.

It's just that a bullet fired straight (or near straight) into the air does not have a large horizontal velocity.



Imagine shooting a firearm in which the barrel is perfectly horizontal. At the same time, drop another bullet from the height of the muzzle.

While the fired projectile will travel thousands of feet away before striking the ground, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time, since they have the same initial vertical velocity of zero, and the only force pulling the bullet down is gravity.


The only thing I haven't figured out is what is the best rifle for hunting frictionless elephants and spherical cows.
 
Excellent exposition, Mad Man, but

Isaac Newton was way ahead of you. Credit where due, please.



Edit: You wouldn't know where I could get me some of that there massless inextensible rope and some of them frictionless, massless sheaves, wouldya?
 
Interesting stuff in this thread!

Imagine shooting a firearm in which the barrel is perfectly horizontal. At the same time, drop another bullet from the height of the muzzle.

While the fired projectile will travel thousands of feet away before striking the ground, both bullets will hit the ground at the same time, since they have the same initial vertical velocity of zero, and the only force pulling the bullet down is gravity.

The quote below is from a Straight Dope article: "You fire a gun and drop a bullet at the same time. Which bullet hits the ground first?"


If the fired bullet travels only a short distance, then yes, both bullets hit the ground at the same time. However, if the fired bullet travels far enough, the earth, being round, curves away from it. (Remember Newton's first law of motion: moving objects tend to travel in a straight line.) Since the fired bullet has farther to fall, it takes longer to hit the earth, so the dropped bullet hits the ground first.

What's more, if the fired bullet travels fast enough (roughly five miles per second--a practical impossibility given atmospheric friction, but never mind), it goes into orbit around the earth and never hits the ground at all.
:)
 
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